Metal wrapped javanese hilt

Sajen · 2nd February 2011, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Detlef, I must say I'm not sure where it is made, it might be as far as Banten to Surakarta, so I'm sorry you might consider to change the hilt naming once again

Dear Chandra,

tidak ada masalah! (no problem)

Amuk Murugul · 3rd February 2011, 05:36 AM

Hullo everybody,

Interesting post .....
I would start with trying to determine when and where that type of grip was created. That would give me a clue as to whether it was Soenda or Djawa in origin and whether one culture influenced the other in producing this style.

One musn't forget, as many would argue, that at some time in the past Tatar Soenda south of Mt. Merapi, extended to the western banks of the river Progo (thereby easily taking in Banjoemas).
BTW ..... Banjoemasan is not hard to understand by someone who is fluent in Basa Soenda, which may point to some sort of 'cross-pollination'.

Best,

A. G. Maisey · 5th February 2011, 09:49 PM

To my knowledge Banyumas was not renowned for silver-work, nor for any other metal work, however old Banyumas pendoks do show a particular type of engraving that is very similar to that which can be seen on this hilt. I've seen the occasional old Jogja hilt with similar work too, but I have never seen it on old Surakarta items, nor on items that were recognised as coming from other areas.

Quite frankly, if this hilt were in my possession I would not give more than two minutes thought to it.

It is an old metal covered hilt in a Central Javanese style.

To me, that would be the end of the story.

To go further is simply too difficult and far too full of hypotheticals to be of any worth at all.

In respect of the form of this hilt, in a broad sense it is undeniably Surakarta, however this form has been copied in other areas --- usually badly --- and a lot of experience is needed to take a good guess at where a less than well executed one of these hilts might have actually been made.

The origin of this specific form of the planar hilt dates back to the partition of Jawa, however, the origins of the planar hilt style are lost in time, and planar hilts clearly existed even before the implosion of Majapahit, not only for keris, but for other weapons and tools as well.It is simply a very practical shape for a handle.

tunggulametung · 7th February 2011, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

.....old Banyumas pendoks do show a particular type of engraving that is very similar to that which can be seen on this hilt.

.... I've seen the occasional old Jogja hilt with similar work too, but I have never seen it on old Surakarta items, nor on items that were recognised as coming from other areas.

Now you seems very sure that it is Central Java (where form, I'm agree speaking from modern understanding), you mention at first 'no idea at all where it might have been made' then 'very probable Surakarta' (even you note that you are not speaking that it was made in Surakarta) then somehow you associate it with Banyumas given remarkable similar engraving style-and that is very different from Surakarta and Ngayogyakarta. I'm sorry but if you have another two minutes could you please elaborate how such engraving can be positively associated with Banyumas? I thought Banyumas style are more notable for their embossing so I must be wrong in this case so I hope you don't mind to spend another minute or two to enlighten me on how to differentiate Banyumas style pendoks from their Surakarta counterpart in their engraving technique or is it the quality of workmanship that qualify, material or the decoration?

On the occasional jogja hilt with similar work that you refer, is it the work (technique etc), material, decoration or are you try to explain something else in here? Or is it simply Putri Kinurung jogja hilt?

Within my perception nunggak semi hilt is nothing alien in Sunda society (you might want to find some internet photos on some royal Sunda museum collection of Cirebon and Sumedang to illustrate this), and I'm not just speaking about modern day collector who collect just about everything in here. If decoration is important, I can show a very simple hilt where there's no distinct scroll work, mega mendung motif etc needed by a Sundanese to express his work. On the other hand, I can not see how the decoration on Detlef's hilt can be associated with Central Java (other than the overall shape which we all agree) as we in Central Java are crazy about how neat and delicate the cecekan (patra) is etc, a feature usually even missing in Sunda region. I also remember the decoration on the back of the hilt somewhere in a Sundanese sword metal sheath, but I can't remember which piece until now as I've handle quite a few of these. Further the material is not something preferred in Central Java where things, traditionally, doesn't move much from wood or ivory. This is not the case with Sunda. We witness how parallel the West and East Java in terms of hilt variation and examples has been shown by both regions, including the core-metal technique. Also not to forget that many Sunda hilt has a low grade silver or mamas selut which is often poorly done (and very distinct from Surakarta selut), the material is nothing but similar to those I understand as Banyumas pendok.

Thank you in advance for your time.

A. G. Maisey · 7th February 2011, 07:11 AM

Tunggulametung, I am not in the slightest degree interested in getting into a debate with you, nor anybody else, on where this particular hilt may have been made.

I believe I have made that amply clear in all of my posts.

I just don't care where anybody may attribute the thing to in respect of where it was made, or where it may have been worn.

I have made comments based upon my experience, and I am not about to get into giving tuition on how to tell the difference between Jogja work, Solo work and Banyumas work. Anybody who has regularly handled old pendok from these locations can tell at a glance, anybody who has not will need to look in another direction than me for the necessary education.

I have provided my opinion, accept it, or reject it, I simply do not care.

I suggest you may care to read my post #40 again, and try to understand what I have written.It appears your inability to gain a clear understanding of what I have written is causing you to believe I am interested in engaging in some sort of debate.

I am not.

tunggulametung · 7th February 2011, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Tunggulametung, I am not in the slightest degree interested in getting into a debate with you, nor anybody else, on where this particular hilt may have been made.

I'm sorry if you perceive that way but also not my intention. We are here to discuss.

Have a good day

A. G. Maisey · 7th February 2011, 07:54 AM

Yes, that was the way I read your post, but if you say that your intention was not to debate the matter, fair enough, my comment is withdrawn.

However, my position is still the same, in simple terms:-

1)-- the form of this hilt is Central Javanese.

2)-- this form has been associated with Central Jawa since at least the mid- 1700's ( see Jensen)

3)-- it is the Central Javanese form that follows Surakarta form

4)-- it may have been made anywhere

5)-- the line engraving, ( or perhaps the correct term may be incising, as the technique used does not involve cutting, and equally does not involve the embossing process, but rather is carried out by inscribing a line into the surface of the metal with a blunt tool that is pressed and drawn), is similar to that used on old Banyumas pendok; I have not seen this technique used on metal work associated with Surakarta, nor have I seen it on work that can be clearly identified as coming from other areas, but I have seen a few examples on old Jogja pendoks.

6)-- I am not putting forward an opinion on where this hilt may have been made, nor am I putting forward an opinion where it may have been worn, nor am I providing a hypothesis on the conditions under which it may have been worn. I have made a number of comments that are based upon my personal experience, and the opinion given relates to the similarity of workmanship in this hilt with the workmanship to be found in old Banyumas pendok, it also relates to the form of the hilt.

Do not interpret these very limited opinions to construe more than they are intended to construe.

3rd February 2011, 05:36 AM	#2
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 473	Hullo everybody, Interesting post ..... I would start with trying to determine when and where that type of grip was created. That would give me a clue as to whether it was Soenda or Djawa in origin and whether one culture influenced the other in producing this style. One musn't forget, as many would argue, that at some time in the past Tatar Soenda south of Mt. Merapi, extended to the western banks of the river Progo (thereby easily taking in Banjoemas). BTW ..... Banjoemasan is not hard to understand by someone who is fluent in Basa Soenda, which may point to some sort of 'cross-pollination'. Best, Last edited by Amuk Murugul; 4th February 2011 at 02:57 AM.

5th February 2011, 09:49 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	To my knowledge Banyumas was not renowned for silver-work, nor for any other metal work, however old Banyumas pendoks do show a particular type of engraving that is very similar to that which can be seen on this hilt. I've seen the occasional old Jogja hilt with similar work too, but I have never seen it on old Surakarta items, nor on items that were recognised as coming from other areas. Quite frankly, if this hilt were in my possession I would not give more than two minutes thought to it. It is an old metal covered hilt in a Central Javanese style. To me, that would be the end of the story. To go further is simply too difficult and far too full of hypotheticals to be of any worth at all. In respect of the form of this hilt, in a broad sense it is undeniably Surakarta, however this form has been copied in other areas --- usually badly --- and a lot of experience is needed to take a good guess at where a less than well executed one of these hilts might have actually been made. The origin of this specific form of the planar hilt dates back to the partition of Jawa, however, the origins of the planar hilt style are lost in time, and planar hilts clearly existed even before the implosion of Majapahit, not only for keris, but for other weapons and tools as well.It is simply a very practical shape for a handle.

7th February 2011, 07:11 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Tunggulametung, I am not in the slightest degree interested in getting into a debate with you, nor anybody else, on where this particular hilt may have been made. I believe I have made that amply clear in all of my posts. I just don't care where anybody may attribute the thing to in respect of where it was made, or where it may have been worn. I have made comments based upon my experience, and I am not about to get into giving tuition on how to tell the difference between Jogja work, Solo work and Banyumas work. Anybody who has regularly handled old pendok from these locations can tell at a glance, anybody who has not will need to look in another direction than me for the necessary education. I have provided my opinion, accept it, or reject it, I simply do not care. I suggest you may care to read my post #40 again, and try to understand what I have written.It appears your inability to gain a clear understanding of what I have written is causing you to believe I am interested in engaging in some sort of debate. I am not.

7th February 2011, 07:54 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Yes, that was the way I read your post, but if you say that your intention was not to debate the matter, fair enough, my comment is withdrawn. However, my position is still the same, in simple terms:- 1)-- the form of this hilt is Central Javanese. 2)-- this form has been associated with Central Jawa since at least the mid- 1700's ( see Jensen) 3)-- it is the Central Javanese form that follows Surakarta form 4)-- it may have been made anywhere 5)-- the line engraving, ( or perhaps the correct term may be incising, as the technique used does not involve cutting, and equally does not involve the embossing process, but rather is carried out by inscribing a line into the surface of the metal with a blunt tool that is pressed and drawn), is similar to that used on old Banyumas pendok; I have not seen this technique used on metal work associated with Surakarta, nor have I seen it on work that can be clearly identified as coming from other areas, but I have seen a few examples on old Jogja pendoks. 6)-- I am not putting forward an opinion on where this hilt may have been made, nor am I putting forward an opinion where it may have been worn, nor am I providing a hypothesis on the conditions under which it may have been worn. I have made a number of comments that are based upon my personal experience, and the opinion given relates to the similarity of workmanship in this hilt with the workmanship to be found in old Banyumas pendok, it also relates to the form of the hilt. Do not interpret these very limited opinions to construe more than they are intended to construe.