A Beautiful Vikingsword, 9th Century!

cornelistromp · 2nd February 2011, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

construction than most old blades) …and I’ve never seen an authentic blade with the chevron angle so stretched out. Attached is a photo of a more ‘normal’ chevron angle.

.

Hi Jeff,

that you have never seen it means nothing, Unless you have seen them all! (famous Oakeshott quote)

(it does not mean in any case that it has never existed on Viking swordblades.)

re:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Pringle

I can’t recall a single example from the era.

attached some carved viking hilt parts;
This elaborate Viking sword hilt was found on the Isle of Man by two gentlemen with a metal detector. Here's how 24-Hour Museum describes the pommel (top part):
Rather like a set of knuckles, the pommel (the top part of the sword) design is divided into 5 parts, or lobes, each with intricately carved designs. In between the lobes are sets of finely twisted silver wires – a technique seen a few times on artefacts from the Isle.

kind regards,

Battara · 2nd February 2011, 06:04 PM

So the consensus is this is a fake. Well I was saying that this is in remarkable condition for being in "excavated condition".

Lee · 2nd February 2011, 06:14 PM

My own experience in examining a number of Viking Age swords is very much in concordance with Jeff's observations.

That 'stretched chevron' pattern is, indeed, unexpected in Viking Age material; I have had this nagging déjà vu that I had seen somewhat similar patterns somewhere in pre-Viking material and at last I have placed this memory with the Danish/N. German Roman Iron Age bog finds and confirmed it by reviewing the marvelous recently published (2006) catalog of the Illerup Ådal finds.

Pukka Bundook · 3rd February 2011, 02:57 PM

Cornelistromp,

Are the upper and lower guards you show made of Iron?
From all appearances, they seem to be non-ferrous metal, as they show little sign of corrosion.
Jeff was speaking of iron hilts being decorated with inlay/overlay, and was not speaking of non-ferrous hilts as it is well known that such hilts often have designs cut/cast into them.

Some iron hilts Do show Light engraving, where they had originally a non-ferrous overlay, (Silver or whatever) then a design cut Through the overlay, into the iron beneath, to show contrast.
Such engraving appears lightly done, compared to the heavy designs on the non-ferrous hilts.

As always, if we use the words Never or Always,...we get into trouble!

Best wishes,
Richard.

Matchlock · 3rd February 2011, 08:02 PM

Hello Richard,

It's good to hear of you, my friend, and to learn from your both carefully and well balanced terms as ever.

Best as always,
Michael

cornelistromp · 3rd February 2011, 08:42 PM

Hi Richard,

you are right if I use the word never in a discussion with my wife, 9 of 10 times it means that Iam in serious trouble

re:carving in iron in high relief.
In the national museum in Helsinki are (plenty) viking Hilt examples of iron carving in high relief.

what we know and have seen in viking swords is only "the top of the iceberg" there must have been 100's of thousands of swords.
Unfortunately there are only a few % remaining for study, which are obviously far from representative of what was common in forging /patterns and of what was common in the use of certain type of decorations.

best,

Pukka Bundook · 4th February 2011, 05:00 AM

Michael,

I too am no expert on anything, and very far from it on Viking age swords!
It appears one must be something of a politician, and say lots and yet say nothing, to avoid being wrong!

Cornelistromp,

Do you see the wisdom in my words aboove? I can get into trouble so easily if I say much at all!
I must look at the iron hilts from Finland, and may learn something.

Thank you for the direction!

Richard.

cornelistromp · 4th February 2011, 08:29 AM

there is very interesting book published about central and eastern european viking swords;

early medieval swords from central and eastern Europe, dilemmas of an Archeologist and a student of arms. by Lech Marek
isbn 83-229-2624-3
beautiful, interesting and scientifically correct approach of technological aspects of the blade construction, blade forms, inscriptions and techniques invocations etc. very recommendable

best,

2nd February 2011, 06:04 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	So the consensus is this is a fake. Well I was saying that this is in remarkable condition for being in "excavated condition".

2nd February 2011, 06:14 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 937	My own experience in examining a number of Viking Age swords is very much in concordance with Jeff's observations. That 'stretched chevron' pattern is, indeed, unexpected in Viking Age material; I have had this nagging déjà vu that I had seen somewhat similar patterns somewhere in pre-Viking material and at last I have placed this memory with the Danish/N. German Roman Iron Age bog finds and confirmed it by reviewing the marvelous recently published (2006) catalog of the Illerup Ådal finds.

3rd February 2011, 02:57 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Cornelistromp, Are the upper and lower guards you show made of Iron? From all appearances, they seem to be non-ferrous metal, as they show little sign of corrosion. Jeff was speaking of iron hilts being decorated with inlay/overlay, and was not speaking of non-ferrous hilts as it is well known that such hilts often have designs cut/cast into them. Some iron hilts Do show Light engraving, where they had originally a non-ferrous overlay, (Silver or whatever) then a design cut Through the overlay, into the iron beneath, to show contrast. Such engraving appears lightly done, compared to the heavy designs on the non-ferrous hilts. As always, if we use the words Never or Always,...we get into trouble! Best wishes, Richard.

3rd February 2011, 08:02 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hello Richard, It's good to hear of you, my friend, and to learn from your both carefully and well balanced terms as ever. Best as always, Michael

3rd February 2011, 08:42 PM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Richard, you are right if I use the word never in a discussion with my wife, 9 of 10 times it means that Iam in serious trouble re:carving in iron in high relief. In the national museum in Helsinki are (plenty) viking Hilt examples of iron carving in high relief. what we know and have seen in viking swords is only "the top of the iceberg" there must have been 100's of thousands of swords. Unfortunately there are only a few % remaining for study, which are obviously far from representative of what was common in forging /patterns and of what was common in the use of certain type of decorations. best,

4th February 2011, 05:00 AM	#7
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Michael, I too am no expert on anything, and very far from it on Viking age swords! It appears one must be something of a politician, and say lots and yet say nothing, to avoid being wrong! Cornelistromp, Do you see the wisdom in my words aboove? I can get into trouble so easily if I say much at all! I must look at the iron hilts from Finland, and may learn something. Thank you for the direction! Richard.

4th February 2011, 08:29 AM	#8
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	there is very interesting book published about central and eastern european viking swords; early medieval swords from central and eastern Europe, dilemmas of an Archeologist and a student of arms. by Lech Marek isbn 83-229-2624-3 beautiful, interesting and scientifically correct approach of technological aspects of the blade construction, blade forms, inscriptions and techniques invocations etc. very recommendable best,