9 Ring Broadsword

fearn · 17th January 2011, 08:20 PM

I've heard several stories in kung fu schools.

The rings are meant to ring when you shake them, and I think the tradition of putting rings on swords goes back quite a ways. I remember seeing a description of a sword with something like three points, four rings, and five stars in the <i>Water Margin</i>. I don't know if that's in the original 16th Century version or if it is a more recent addition. I've also seen a description of a modern Miao or Hmong shaman using a sword shaped rattle in a ritual. There are similar traditions of gold coin swords in feng shui and peach wood swords in Taoist exorcisms.

The question for the nine rings is context, whether it's meant to be rung in religious dramas, or whether it's meant to be rung in a street performance to be more dramatic. My bet is both. Kungfu, like capoeira and Pentjak-Silat, has a performance branch (wushu) as well as a martial branch (guoshu), and I think the nine rings swords belong squarely in the performance arena.

Best,

F

Neil · 17th January 2011, 08:58 PM

This type of sword is mentioned by Philip in the following post as a street performers tool.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=boxer

I think the example in the second picture is a modern reproduction.

I also think there is a lot of misinformation abound in modern Chinese martial art circles about the reality of historic weaponry. I have been personally trying to unravel this puzzle for my own understanding as one such martial artist for a long time. The problem is there seems to be somewhat of an institution of misinformation related to magazine publications and kung fu books etc. versus much credible scholarship. For the record I want to say how much I appreciate this forum as a venue to see and discuss real Chinese historic arms.

Neil · 17th January 2011, 09:21 PM

Thought this might be thought provoking as well.

Gavin Nugent · 17th January 2011, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neil

Thought this might be thought provoking as well.

A good image Neil but that ring is for suspension, as Philip has also noted, a strap was run between it and the ring pommel and slung over the shoulder like a rifle.

Gav

Neil · 17th January 2011, 10:12 PM

I totally hear what you are saying. But in this case I was thinking of it as the original example and later inspiration for the 9 ring sabers that we see above.

PS - I started a thread about it being used as a sling. I have only heard people talking about it and never seen an example. Clearly an example, or some real evidence needs to be seen to give the idea true credibility besides it just "making sense".

Gavin Nugent · 19th January 2011, 06:42 AM

I've never seen a genuine antique 9 ring sabre but if I was to speculate the "9" I'd suggest the following;

Nine is considered to be the luckiest number because all odd numbers are considered heavenly and nine is the highest single digit odd number.
Nine also symbolizes the nine layers of heaven and is associated with yang, male energy.

Attached is a partial snap of my antique provenanced ring back Dao, although there are not 9 rings on this example.

Gav

VANDOO · 19th January 2011, 05:34 PM

JUST A FEW THOUGHTS. WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE ON THE LAST EXAMPLE ? JUDGEING FROM THE RUST PATTERN IT MAY HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF STORAGE SCABBARD AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OPEN ALONG THE SIDE WHERE THE RINGS ARE LOCATED. IT WOULD NEVER FIT SNUG IN A FULL SCABBARD AND WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DRAW IF ANY RESTRICTION WAS PRESENT.
THE SWORD COULD BE USED TO MAKE A LOT OF NOISE PERHAPS TO DISTRACT OR ALARM LIKE WHEN A RATTLE SNAKE RATTELES ITS TAIL.

I SEEM TO REMEMBER SEEING SOME RINGS ON THE BLADES OF SOME OF THE LARGE CHINESE POLE ARMS AS WELL. OF COURSE IT COULD HAVE BEEN IN A CHINESE KUNGFU MOVIE UNFORTUNATELY TRUTH IS OFTEN BURIED IN ALL THE FANTASY ENTERTAINMENT , AND THAT IS MOSTLY WHAT WE SEE.

17th January 2011, 09:21 PM	#3
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 114	Thought this might be thought provoking as well. Attached Images

19th January 2011, 06:42 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	I've never seen a real 9 ring so far... I've never seen a genuine antique 9 ring sabre but if I was to speculate the "9" I'd suggest the following; Nine is considered to be the luckiest number because all odd numbers are considered heavenly and nine is the highest single digit odd number. Nine also symbolizes the nine layers of heaven and is associated with yang, male energy. Attached is a partial snap of my antique provenanced ring back Dao, although there are not 9 rings on this example. Gav Attached Images Last edited by freebooter; 19th January 2011 at 09:48 AM.

17th January 2011, 08:20 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I've heard several stories in kung fu schools. The rings are meant to ring when you shake them, and I think the tradition of putting rings on swords goes back quite a ways. I remember seeing a description of a sword with something like three points, four rings, and five stars in the <i>Water Margin</i>. I don't know if that's in the original 16th Century version or if it is a more recent addition. I've also seen a description of a modern Miao or Hmong shaman using a sword shaped rattle in a ritual. There are similar traditions of gold coin swords in feng shui and peach wood swords in Taoist exorcisms. The question for the nine rings is context, whether it's meant to be rung in religious dramas, or whether it's meant to be rung in a street performance to be more dramatic. My bet is both. Kungfu, like capoeira and Pentjak-Silat, has a performance branch (wushu) as well as a martial branch (guoshu), and I think the nine rings swords belong squarely in the performance arena. Best, F

17th January 2011, 08:58 PM	#2
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 114	This type of sword is mentioned by Philip in the following post as a street performers tool. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=boxer I think the example in the second picture is a modern reproduction. I also think there is a lot of misinformation abound in modern Chinese martial art circles about the reality of historic weaponry. I have been personally trying to unravel this puzzle for my own understanding as one such martial artist for a long time. The problem is there seems to be somewhat of an institution of misinformation related to magazine publications and kung fu books etc. versus much credible scholarship. For the record I want to say how much I appreciate this forum as a venue to see and discuss real Chinese historic arms.

17th January 2011, 10:12 PM	#5
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 114	I totally hear what you are saying. But in this case I was thinking of it as the original example and later inspiration for the 9 ring sabers that we see above. PS - I started a thread about it being used as a sling. I have only heard people talking about it and never seen an example. Clearly an example, or some real evidence needs to be seen to give the idea true credibility besides it just "making sense".

19th January 2011, 05:34 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	JUST A FEW THOUGHTS. WHAT IS THE PROVENANCE ON THE LAST EXAMPLE ? JUDGEING FROM THE RUST PATTERN IT MAY HAVE HAD SOME SORT OF STORAGE SCABBARD AND IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OPEN ALONG THE SIDE WHERE THE RINGS ARE LOCATED. IT WOULD NEVER FIT SNUG IN A FULL SCABBARD AND WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DRAW IF ANY RESTRICTION WAS PRESENT. THE SWORD COULD BE USED TO MAKE A LOT OF NOISE PERHAPS TO DISTRACT OR ALARM LIKE WHEN A RATTLE SNAKE RATTELES ITS TAIL. I SEEM TO REMEMBER SEEING SOME RINGS ON THE BLADES OF SOME OF THE LARGE CHINESE POLE ARMS AS WELL. OF COURSE IT COULD HAVE BEEN IN A CHINESE KUNGFU MOVIE UNFORTUNATELY TRUTH IS OFTEN BURIED IN ALL THE FANTASY ENTERTAINMENT , AND THAT IS MOSTLY WHAT WE SEE.