What makes a dha a dha

Andrew · 20th December 2004, 04:58 AM

I've been giving this some thought since we last discussed it, Tom. I'm drifting away from this line of reasoning.

The category "dha" covers a broad range of weapons from an area large in both geography as well as culture. Uniting the weapons we think of as "dha" are elements lacking in the knives you refer to. They are, in my mind, too wide and lack the cylindrical handle common to dha.

Also, while I'm sure they make fine weapons (so do kitchen cleavers) I believe them to be tools first. Dha are usually weapons first, with the line blurring especially when one starts to consider the machete-like dhas of the kachin and "Montagnards".

What do you think. I've got a few of these (including a cool mak I got from you, thanks

) and they remind me of the old yard tools I've got from my grandfather in Pennsylvania.

tom hyle · 25th December 2004, 04:05 AM

I suppose that's just the crux of the biscuit; I tend to view the dha as a sword of worklike capabilities and intent; I don't see any sharp division in intent between the warrior's sword that might be used for work and the farmer's sword which is certainly intended for self-defence, among other uses. I also don't see any sharp division in design or construction. The handles on the farm swords actually are often cylindrical, often with a front and back ferule, and the other common form to my experience is nearly cylindrical, with a trailing rear tip that reminds me of the tip of a whale's tooth. There does seem to be a division of width somewhat along the lines of what is being divided off at the edge of the word "dha", but I'm not sure what the real meaning of that division is, or whether it would not be more valid to think of it as a division within an overall class, rather than two truly distinct types of sword.

Andrew · 25th December 2004, 06:53 AM

All valid points. The existence of common characteristics ("familial", even?) does support your argument. However, such things are to be expected I think, given the environmental factors.

We're just speculating unnecessarily, really. Someone local could easily confirm if these knives are considered to be "dha", or in the same family of weapons/tools we generally use the term to refer to.

Any thoughts, Dan?

dennee · 5th January 2005, 05:01 AM

In case anyone is interested. Not terribly high quality photo, I'm afraid; unfamiliar camera, dark museum, and they were mounted on a wall overhead in a stairway.

These are in the Pitt-Rivers Museum in Oxford. The label reads "Varieties of the Burmese da for various uses. Pres[ente]d by Capt. R.C. Temple R.E., 1889."

I have some shots of Naga daos and spears and some other Asian miscellany from the same museum, if anyone is interested.

Spunjer · 5th January 2005, 05:04 AM

dennee,

all swords are welcome! please feel free to post your other pics. looking forward to seeing it...

tom hyle · 5th January 2005, 05:24 AM

nice pic, and interesting. Thanks. That one looks really panabassy, don't it?

Ian · 5th January 2005, 05:35 AM

Dennee:

Please do post more pictures.

Like many museum collections, mislabeling is quite common. In the photo you show from the Pitt-Rivers, the bottom one on the right is a form of tool, similar to a heavy knife still used for splitting coconuts. The bottom one on the right is also a heavy utility knife.

The second from bottom on the left is a pisau raut (rattan knife), used for splitting rattan into strips. This style is common today in northern Thailand/Cambodia -- the long hilt is rested against the chest and the blade lies on a flat surface, with the rattan being drawn along the cutting edge towards the cutter who is seated. The second from bottom on the left appears to be a heavier bladed variant of the same.

The rest are knives and short swords, some of which are probably Burmese, but a couple of the longer hilted ones could be Thai. Hard to make out the detail of the hilts. Interesting collection of blades.

Thanks for showing these.

Ian.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 5th January 2005, 09:43 AM

This is a great thread y'all have really made me think and I even sucked my wife into this discussion to clarify some points on language usage.

Excellent points Tom and Andrew, actually the photo that Dennee supplied illustrates this discussion extremely well. As Ian has already correctly identified these I'll talk about the terms in the Thai language used to identify these blades. "meed" is the term used to identify cutting blades in Thai while it can be translated as knife "cutting blade" is more accurate in actual usage. "meed darb" or shortened to just "darb" specifically refers to swords as does the term dha I believe unless modified by a second word.

The rattan knifes in Dennees picture are also called "meed wai", the coconut knifes are called "meed phraa" (chopping blade) now these terms may vary slightly according to region as may the shapes but they all carry the same connotation, that of a utility blade. They were made with a single usage in mind.

To be classified as a dha (darb) they must at least have a dual use as a fighting weapon (yes knives can be fighting weapons, but NOT a main battle weapon) or be designed solely as a fighting weapon. That means it must have the length to reach through an opponent's guard or past his/her shield. It must also have speed of manuveur. Heavy knives and shorter blades don't meet that criteria (and please don't argue fighting techniques - I'm discussing actual usage of the terms). The two on the right in Dennee's photo have that length and would would meet the minimal dual use criteria and the range criteria and would be referred to in Thai as darb or meed darb.

Tom, I think you should see some difference in intent, however I agree you won't see many differences in design or construction in most of the lower class swords as these were generally made by the same village smiths that made the knives. Only the higher grade swords would show that variance in design and construction, and that was usually directed by the person commissioning the blade. Additionally, as with most things, you have those that make the high-end stuff and those that have found their market niche in the low-end.

That top one looks more like a panabas to me - never seen one like it in Siam.

25th December 2004, 04:05 AM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I suppose that's just the crux of the biscuit; I tend to view the dha as a sword of worklike capabilities and intent; I don't see any sharp division in intent between the warrior's sword that might be used for work and the farmer's sword which is certainly intended for self-defence, among other uses. I also don't see any sharp division in design or construction. The handles on the farm swords actually are often cylindrical, often with a front and back ferule, and the other common form to my experience is nearly cylindrical, with a trailing rear tip that reminds me of the tip of a whale's tooth. There does seem to be a division of width somewhat along the lines of what is being divided off at the edge of the word "dha", but I'm not sure what the real meaning of that division is, or whether it would not be more valid to think of it as a division within an overall class, rather than two truly distinct types of sword. Last edited by tom hyle; 25th December 2004 at 04:07 AM. Reason: adding/clarifying

5th January 2005, 05:01 AM	#4
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Some pre-1889 working dhas from Burma In case anyone is interested. Not terribly high quality photo, I'm afraid; unfamiliar camera, dark museum, and they were mounted on a wall overhead in a stairway. These are in the Pitt-Rivers Museum in Oxford. The label reads "Varieties of the Burmese da for various uses. Pres[ente]d by Capt. R.C. Temple R.E., 1889." I have some shots of Naga daos and spears and some other Asian miscellany from the same museum, if anyone is interested. Attached Images

5th January 2005, 05:35 AM	#7
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,613	Good stuff Dennee: Please do post more pictures. Like many museum collections, mislabeling is quite common. In the photo you show from the Pitt-Rivers, the bottom one on the right is a form of tool, similar to a heavy knife still used for splitting coconuts. The bottom one on the right is also a heavy utility knife. The second from bottom on the left is a pisau raut (rattan knife), used for splitting rattan into strips. This style is common today in northern Thailand/Cambodia -- the long hilt is rested against the chest and the blade lies on a flat surface, with the rattan being drawn along the cutting edge towards the cutter who is seated. The second from bottom on the left appears to be a heavier bladed variant of the same. The rest are knives and short swords, some of which are probably Burmese, but a couple of the longer hilted ones could be Thai. Hard to make out the detail of the hilts. Interesting collection of blades. Thanks for showing these. Ian.

5th January 2005, 09:43 AM	#8
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Knife or sword This is a great thread y'all have really made me think and I even sucked my wife into this discussion to clarify some points on language usage. Excellent points Tom and Andrew, actually the photo that Dennee supplied illustrates this discussion extremely well. As Ian has already correctly identified these I'll talk about the terms in the Thai language used to identify these blades. "meed" is the term used to identify cutting blades in Thai while it can be translated as knife "cutting blade" is more accurate in actual usage. "meed darb" or shortened to just "darb" specifically refers to swords as does the term dha I believe unless modified by a second word. The rattan knifes in Dennees picture are also called "meed wai", the coconut knifes are called "meed phraa" (chopping blade) now these terms may vary slightly according to region as may the shapes but they all carry the same connotation, that of a utility blade. They were made with a single usage in mind. To be classified as a dha (darb) they must at least have a dual use as a fighting weapon (yes knives can be fighting weapons, but NOT a main battle weapon) or be designed solely as a fighting weapon. That means it must have the length to reach through an opponent's guard or past his/her shield. It must also have speed of manuveur. Heavy knives and shorter blades don't meet that criteria (and please don't argue fighting techniques - I'm discussing actual usage of the terms). The two on the right in Dennee's photo have that length and would would meet the minimal dual use criteria and the range criteria and would be referred to in Thai as darb or meed darb. Tom, I think you should see some difference in intent, however I agree you won't see many differences in design or construction in most of the lower class swords as these were generally made by the same village smiths that made the knives. Only the higher grade swords would show that variance in design and construction, and that was usually directed by the person commissioning the blade. Additionally, as with most things, you have those that make the high-end stuff and those that have found their market niche in the low-end. That top one looks more like a panabas to me - never seen one like it in Siam.

20th December 2004, 04:58 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I've been giving this some thought since we last discussed it, Tom. I'm drifting away from this line of reasoning. The category "dha" covers a broad range of weapons from an area large in both geography as well as culture. Uniting the weapons we think of as "dha" are elements lacking in the knives you refer to. They are, in my mind, too wide and lack the cylindrical handle common to dha. Also, while I'm sure they make fine weapons (so do kitchen cleavers) I believe them to be tools first. Dha are usually weapons first, with the line blurring especially when one starts to consider the machete-like dhas of the kachin and "Montagnards". What do you think. I've got a few of these (including a cool mak I got from you, thanks ) and they remind me of the old yard tools I've got from my grandfather in Pennsylvania.

25th December 2004, 06:53 AM	#3
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	All valid points. The existence of common characteristics ("familial", even?) does support your argument. However, such things are to be expected I think, given the environmental factors. We're just speculating unnecessarily, really. Someone local could easily confirm if these knives are considered to be "dha", or in the same family of weapons/tools we generally use the term to refer to. Any thoughts, Dan?

5th January 2005, 05:04 AM	#5
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	dennee, all swords are welcome! please feel free to post your other pics. looking forward to seeing it...

5th January 2005, 05:24 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	nice pic, and interesting. Thanks. That one looks really panabassy, don't it?