Metal wrapped javanese hilt

PenangsangII · 5th January 2011, 05:00 AM

the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...

Gustav · 5th January 2011, 01:44 PM

This thread seems to become more and more weird - a classic of its kind

David · 5th January 2011, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...

You have confused me Penangsang....which hilt are you commenting on? Sajen's original posting has no mendak, but it seems to be the one where the "overall hilt pakem conform Solonese". It is Jean's example that has a mendak and this one looks much more clearly Cirebon to me.

Sajen · 5th January 2011, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...

I am confused as well!

Same reason like by David. Please can you explain from which hilt you are "speaking"?

Regards,

Detlef

PenangsangII · 6th January 2011, 04:46 AM

I am confused as well... that's the problem surfing the internet using small gadjet like a hand phone

aplogy everyone...got mixed up with the 2 great pictures.... yup, the first one is Solonese pakem but the metal works could have been Cirebon, as its often to see Cirebonese hilts wrapped in silver carved works.

The second one is of of course pesisiran type, most probably Cirebon or Banten. The mendak on the seco0nd hilt is meniran Cirebon type I think...

Jean · 6th January 2011, 11:50 AM

Dear friends,

Sorry to have been the source of so many confusions, it was not intentional but only to show another type of Javanese metal hilt on resin core and possibly from the same origin as the one from Sajen. May be some of you were distracted by the New Year festivities?

Best regards
Jean

David · 6th January 2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Dear friends,

Sorry to have been the source of so many confusions, it was not intentional but only to show another type of Javanese metal hilt on resin core and possibly from the same origin as the one from Sajen. May be some of you were distracted by the New Year festivities?

Best regards
Jean

Hey Jean, i do not believe you are the source of confusion here so no need to apologize. Your entry in this thread is quite logical and applicable to the question...

tunggulametung · 29th January 2011, 09:01 PM

Hello guys, I guess I owe this following post and it is due. I've been exchanging some PMs with Detlef much earlier but here it goes.

This hilt is coming from a Cirebonese friend from whom I obtain some unique pieces, he said it is collected there and I have no doubt about his integrity.

I've seen few examples which is said coming from the area but unfortunately never as eleborate. Other than the shape which is attributed to Surakarta, the material, the build and artistic might give a good direction to Sunda, please refer to (easier to find) golok example from the region.

By mentioning Cirebon, I would suggest that we think of Sunda as a whole, i.e. Kuningan, Bandung, Ciamis, Sukabumi, Pandeglang, Serang, Cianjur, Sumedang, etc. and even the western approximate of Central Java.

I attached some old photos from KILTV online collection to show that by the late 1800s it seems that nunggak semi hilts is rather a standard for Sundanese aristocrates (most of the name confirm they are Sundanese ethnically i.e. not Javanese expatriate by Dutch appointment). If you browse more it is apperent that it is the same case with estern part of Java other than some people who prefer to carry local style on the occasion (East Java, Madura).

I could be wrong but I doubt nunggak semi is unique to Mataram in the past. To the more extreme way of thinking, can anyone prove that it is born over there? Then we learn that Islam teaching start from coastal regions (pesisiran) so could it be Banten? Cirebon? Tegal? Pekalongan? Demak? Jepara? Tuban? Gresik? When was it born? as early as 14 c.? 15c.? 16c.? older? much older? Has anybody worn it once in the street market of Trowulan of Gajah Mada time? Or only after Pajang era? Or is it imported (and/or modified) to Java from Sumatra (Pasai)? I doubt other than Syarif Hidayatullah (Sunan Gunung Jati) and people of his time who live long enough to witness the shift of Hindu to Islam (Majapahit to Mataram) can answer this.

If we brought it to modern time, it is now a 'standard' style, loosly and wrongly, nationwide. On the following pesisiran performace [clip] , the attire, the dance, the music, everything says Sundanese, but not the keris. It has travelled as far as Brunei Darussalam on formal pose and become one of the most popular government souvenir for foreign guests other than Balinese keris.

Of course I can be wrong on this and I'm always eager to learn something new

tunggulametung · 29th January 2011, 09:10 PM

More pictures... Raden Adipati Wira with his amazing collection and (once mine) carved horn hilt which is said coming from Cirebon (or surrounding

).

29th January 2011, 09:01 PM	#8
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello guys, I guess I owe this following post and it is due. I've been exchanging some PMs with Detlef much earlier but here it goes. This hilt is coming from a Cirebonese friend from whom I obtain some unique pieces, he said it is collected there and I have no doubt about his integrity. I've seen few examples which is said coming from the area but unfortunately never as eleborate. Other than the shape which is attributed to Surakarta, the material, the build and artistic might give a good direction to Sunda, please refer to (easier to find) golok example from the region. By mentioning Cirebon, I would suggest that we think of Sunda as a whole, i.e. Kuningan, Bandung, Ciamis, Sukabumi, Pandeglang, Serang, Cianjur, Sumedang, etc. and even the western approximate of Central Java. I attached some old photos from KILTV online collection to show that by the late 1800s it seems that nunggak semi hilts is rather a standard for Sundanese aristocrates (most of the name confirm they are Sundanese ethnically i.e. not Javanese expatriate by Dutch appointment). If you browse more it is apperent that it is the same case with estern part of Java other than some people who prefer to carry local style on the occasion (East Java, Madura). I could be wrong but I doubt nunggak semi is unique to Mataram in the past. To the more extreme way of thinking, can anyone prove that it is born over there? Then we learn that Islam teaching start from coastal regions (pesisiran) so could it be Banten? Cirebon? Tegal? Pekalongan? Demak? Jepara? Tuban? Gresik? When was it born? as early as 14 c.? 15c.? 16c.? older? much older? Has anybody worn it once in the street market of Trowulan of Gajah Mada time? Or only after Pajang era? Or is it imported (and/or modified) to Java from Sumatra (Pasai)? I doubt other than Syarif Hidayatullah (Sunan Gunung Jati) and people of his time who live long enough to witness the shift of Hindu to Islam (Majapahit to Mataram) can answer this. If we brought it to modern time, it is now a 'standard' style, loosly and wrongly, nationwide. On the following pesisiran performace [clip] , the attire, the dance, the music, everything says Sundanese, but not the keris. It has travelled as far as Brunei Darussalam on formal pose and become one of the most popular government souvenir for foreign guests other than Balinese keris. Of course I can be wrong on this and I'm always eager to learn something new Attached Images

29th January 2011, 09:10 PM	#9
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	More pictures... Raden Adipati Wira with his amazing collection and (once mine) carved horn hilt which is said coming from Cirebon (or surrounding ). Attached Images

5th January 2011, 05:00 AM	#1
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...

5th January 2011, 01:44 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,280	This thread seems to become more and more weird - a classic of its kind

6th January 2011, 04:46 AM	#5
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I am confused as well... that's the problem surfing the internet using small gadjet like a hand phone aplogy everyone...got mixed up with the 2 great pictures.... yup, the first one is Solonese pakem but the metal works could have been Cirebon, as its often to see Cirebonese hilts wrapped in silver carved works. The second one is of of course pesisiran type, most probably Cirebon or Banten. The mendak on the seco0nd hilt is meniran Cirebon type I think...

6th January 2011, 11:50 AM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Dear friends, Sorry to have been the source of so many confusions, it was not intentional but only to show another type of Javanese metal hilt on resin core and possibly from the same origin as the one from Sajen. May be some of you were distracted by the New Year festivities? Best regards Jean