What is the relationship between a keris and its hilt in the ancient culture?

Neo · 1st January 2011, 10:36 AM

David: Thanks!!! I enjoy looking at the collections.

Mr. Maisey: That's pretty much the answer I needed, thanks. The reason behind my question is because I have some kerises that are likely to be from sepuh era - one probably from Jenggala and another from Majapahit. The warangka and hilts on these items are either mediocre or worn down, and I would like to make new ones someday.

My personal preference is to make a new set of warangka and hilt that are as close as possible to the norms of the era from which the blades were made.

From your answer, I suppose there are not much grammar and syntax I can strictly adhere to in choosing the right style. Perhaps someday I could just post the pictures of my blade here and have other forumites suggest some suitable themes

tunggulametung · 1st January 2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

...The reason behind my question is because I have some kerises that are likely to be from sepuh era - one probably from Jenggala and another from Majapahit.....

Hello Neo, if I understand correctly, you have the reason to believe that your keris are coming from Jenggala and Majapahit, that is to say estimated 11-12 and 13-16 century keris. If I may learn from you, what indicate this please?

Neo · 1st January 2011, 01:31 PM

Gustav:That excerpt from Margaret Wiener is really helpful. Thanks. As for the Jasper and Mas Pirngadie, could you kindly translate that part into English? I only managed to guess about 20% of the meaning from the similarity of the sounds

TunggulAmetung:
Oops, I am a newbie so I dare not say you would learn from me, plus being a newbie means I am prone to making mistakes. I haven't got time to take picture of the kerises, so this is all I can say. There is one that I'm not sure if it was a Majapahit or a Mataram, (from my skill level, it is hard to tell the difference). The dealer who sold it to me said the iron grains look more like Majapahit because it has longer and more visible grains. As for the Jenggala one, I am very likely to be wrong as well. The gandik looks like "bemo", almost like a Segaluh, but the greneng part was very short and simple.

Someday I will post the images. Till then, thanks for your interest

Gustav · 1st January 2011, 09:29 PM

There is a translation of Jasper/Mas Pirngadie, please excuse for the quality, I am reading Dutch with difficulties.

"The golden and ivory keris hilts of the four above forms (togogan, gerantim, kocet-kocetan and djaglir) were previously weared only by people belonging to the triwangsa (one of 3 castes). Today (between 1920 and 1930) there are no longer worries about that regulation and one sees golden keris hilts weared also by rich Soedra's.

They were previously alloved to wear only wooden keris hilts, which are looking like some of the simplest Javanese keris hilts, but are thicker and shorter. They are called bebondollan (ordinary form) or tjekahan (with symmetrical horizontal incised slots). Sometimes, they have the form of a slightly curved cylinder, which, in order to make it easier to maintain, is wrapped with a thick idjoek-wire. "

Regarding further rank distinctions in Bali (from M.Wiener, page 66):

"Keris also marked distinctions of rank: high status men nyungklit their keris, wore them on their backs, hilts peeking over their shoulders; others nyelet their keris, wore them at their waists."

This explains, why the Balinese farmer from Jensens book, page 211, is carrying his two kerisses at the waist.

Neo · 2nd January 2011, 12:31 PM

Many thanks for the translation, Gustav. So that's the explanation behind bebondolan and other Bali types. This thread has provided me with very rich info. I will get Neka's newest book the next time I go there

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2011, 02:18 AM

Neo, the best representations of old keris dress that I know of are in the relief carvings at Panataran and Sukuh.

I think that if you search the photos of these reliefs on my site, you will probably find the pics.

The Panataran one is the carving of a keris fight and you can clearly see a scabbard of Bugis style in the waist band.

The Sukuh pic shows a ladrangan of approximately East Javanese style, again in a waist band.

However --- don't get too carried away with what you might have been told about the age of what you have. A lot of people in the keris world have very active imaginations.

Apart from what I have already said about hilts, it would be of use for anybody who wishes to understand the place of weapon hilts in SE Asian cultures, not only Jawa/Bali, to read widely on some of the less developed cultures in the region.Its all out there, but it does require a bit more than a quick google to get the answers.

Neo · 4th January 2011, 12:42 PM

Bugis style scabbard in Candi Penataran ... Hmmm, that's a surprise. Thanks for the info. I will do my research.

1st January 2011, 01:31 PM	#3
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Gustav:That excerpt from Margaret Wiener is really helpful. Thanks. As for the Jasper and Mas Pirngadie, could you kindly translate that part into English? I only managed to guess about 20% of the meaning from the similarity of the sounds TunggulAmetung: Oops, I am a newbie so I dare not say you would learn from me, plus being a newbie means I am prone to making mistakes. I haven't got time to take picture of the kerises, so this is all I can say. There is one that I'm not sure if it was a Majapahit or a Mataram, (from my skill level, it is hard to tell the difference). The dealer who sold it to me said the iron grains look more like Majapahit because it has longer and more visible grains. As for the Jenggala one, I am very likely to be wrong as well. The gandik looks like "bemo", almost like a Segaluh, but the greneng part was very short and simple. Someday I will post the images. Till then, thanks for your interest Last edited by Neo; 1st January 2011 at 01:35 PM. Reason: spelling

1st January 2011, 09:29 PM	#4
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	There is a translation of Jasper/Mas Pirngadie, please excuse for the quality, I am reading Dutch with difficulties. "The golden and ivory keris hilts of the four above forms (togogan, gerantim, kocet-kocetan and djaglir) were previously weared only by people belonging to the triwangsa (one of 3 castes). Today (between 1920 and 1930) there are no longer worries about that regulation and one sees golden keris hilts weared also by rich Soedra's. They were previously alloved to wear only wooden keris hilts, which are looking like some of the simplest Javanese keris hilts, but are thicker and shorter. They are called bebondollan (ordinary form) or tjekahan (with symmetrical horizontal incised slots). Sometimes, they have the form of a slightly curved cylinder, which, in order to make it easier to maintain, is wrapped with a thick idjoek-wire. " Regarding further rank distinctions in Bali (from M.Wiener, page 66): "Keris also marked distinctions of rank: high status men nyungklit their keris, wore them on their backs, hilts peeking over their shoulders; others nyelet their keris, wore them at their waists." This explains, why the Balinese farmer from Jensens book, page 211, is carrying his two kerisses at the waist. Last edited by Gustav; 1st January 2011 at 10:01 PM.

1st January 2011, 10:36 AM	#1
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	David: Thanks!!! I enjoy looking at the collections. Mr. Maisey: That's pretty much the answer I needed, thanks. The reason behind my question is because I have some kerises that are likely to be from sepuh era - one probably from Jenggala and another from Majapahit. The warangka and hilts on these items are either mediocre or worn down, and I would like to make new ones someday. My personal preference is to make a new set of warangka and hilt that are as close as possible to the norms of the era from which the blades were made. From your answer, I suppose there are not much grammar and syntax I can strictly adhere to in choosing the right style. Perhaps someday I could just post the pictures of my blade here and have other forumites suggest some suitable themes

2nd January 2011, 12:31 PM	#5
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Many thanks for the translation, Gustav. So that's the explanation behind bebondolan and other Bali types. This thread has provided me with very rich info. I will get Neka's newest book the next time I go there

3rd January 2011, 02:18 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Neo, the best representations of old keris dress that I know of are in the relief carvings at Panataran and Sukuh. I think that if you search the photos of these reliefs on my site, you will probably find the pics. The Panataran one is the carving of a keris fight and you can clearly see a scabbard of Bugis style in the waist band. The Sukuh pic shows a ladrangan of approximately East Javanese style, again in a waist band. However --- don't get too carried away with what you might have been told about the age of what you have. A lot of people in the keris world have very active imaginations. Apart from what I have already said about hilts, it would be of use for anybody who wishes to understand the place of weapon hilts in SE Asian cultures, not only Jawa/Bali, to read widely on some of the less developed cultures in the region.Its all out there, but it does require a bit more than a quick google to get the answers.

4th January 2011, 12:42 PM	#7
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Bugis style scabbard in Candi Penataran ... Hmmm, that's a surprise. Thanks for the info. I will do my research.