Strange Dagger in 16th Century Dutch Painting

laEspadaAncha · 31st December 2010, 10:53 PM

Hi Michael,

Wonderful examples of period bird's head pommels that do recall the "mystery dagger" as well as the much (much

) later Bucks... You know, I have to admit - I never have once stopped to consider the pommel of the Bucks which are indeed stylized bird's head pommels, as I have always fixated on the blade profile.

So much for my powers of observation, eh?

Regards,

Chris

Matchlock · 31st December 2010, 11:46 PM

Hi Chris,

Thank you so much, and please do take care of your super powers of observation

in 2011, which began in Germany 47 mins ago!

Best regards,
Michael

Matchlock · 2nd January 2011, 05:48 PM

Hi there,

I finally found other samples of such dagger knives, i.e. one-edged daggers, in Thalhoffer's Fencing Books of 1459, together with various more curious daggers and devices you would not have believed they had existed.

Please note the 'bladesmith marks'.

This also backs up what I said about Bosch and his predilection of depicting oldfashioned pieces of accouterment that were still in use with the rural population decades after their make.

I realize this is not a proof of their actual existence, just one more evidence of their being characteristic of the Gothic style.

Enjoy, and best,
Michael

laEspadaAncha · 2nd January 2011, 06:14 PM

Good Morning Michael & a Very Happy New Year!

Wonderful reference, and I thank you for posting it. The deeply curved belly of the 3rd example in the 1st panel (counting left-to-right, top-to-bottom) does indeed resemble our "mystery dagger" in blade profile.

Considering the fanciful appearance of the cut out work along the blade spine in this illustrated example, I can't help but think that if it existed, then Bosch's dagger likely existed as well (especially in light of the other reasons discussed in the thread). Given the details which seem to indicate he painted the same dagger in two of his works, I have to wonder if he had some personal connection to this particular dagger...

Do you by chance have larger scanned copies / images of these pages available? If so, I can PM you my email address, as I would like to have them on hand for reference. I find the turned wooden grips to be interesting, as well as the exposed tang on a couple examples (that appear to be twisted?).

Regards,

Chris

mrwizard · 2nd January 2011, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Do you by chance have larger scanned copies / images of these pages available?

http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/ha...ott-2_290.html

Best Regards,
Thilo

laEspadaAncha · 2nd January 2011, 06:56 PM

"Ask and ye shall receive," eh?

Thank you Thilo...

Matchlock · 2nd January 2011, 07:17 PM

Exactly, and we have received ...

Thanks, Thilo, you were faster than I was.

Best,
Michael

2nd January 2011, 05:48 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi there, I finally found other samples of such dagger knives, i.e. one-edged daggers, in Thalhoffer's Fencing Books of 1459, together with various more curious daggers and devices you would not have believed they had existed. Please note the 'bladesmith marks'. This also backs up what I said about Bosch and his predilection of depicting oldfashioned pieces of accouterment that were still in use with the rural population decades after their make. I realize this is not a proof of their actual existence, just one more evidence of their being characteristic of the Gothic style. Enjoy, and best, Michael Attached Images

31st December 2010, 10:53 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Hi Michael, Wonderful examples of period bird's head pommels that do recall the "mystery dagger" as well as the much (much ) later Bucks... You know, I have to admit - I never have once stopped to consider the pommel of the Bucks which are indeed stylized bird's head pommels, as I have always fixated on the blade profile. So much for my powers of observation, eh? Regards, Chris

31st December 2010, 11:46 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Chris, Thank you so much, and please do take care of your super powers of observation in 2011, which began in Germany 47 mins ago! Best regards, Michael

2nd January 2011, 06:14 PM	#4
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Good Morning Michael & a Very Happy New Year! Wonderful reference, and I thank you for posting it. The deeply curved belly of the 3rd example in the 1st panel (counting left-to-right, top-to-bottom) does indeed resemble our "mystery dagger" in blade profile. Considering the fanciful appearance of the cut out work along the blade spine in this illustrated example, I can't help but think that if it existed, then Bosch's dagger likely existed as well (especially in light of the other reasons discussed in the thread). Given the details which seem to indicate he painted the same dagger in two of his works, I have to wonder if he had some personal connection to this particular dagger... Do you by chance have larger scanned copies / images of these pages available? If so, I can PM you my email address, as I would like to have them on hand for reference. I find the turned wooden grips to be interesting, as well as the exposed tang on a couple examples (that appear to be twisted?). Regards, Chris

2nd January 2011, 06:56 PM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	"Ask and ye shall receive," eh? Thank you Thilo...

2nd January 2011, 07:17 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Exactly, and we have received ... Thanks, Thilo, you were faster than I was. Best, Michael