Strange Dagger in 16th Century Dutch Painting

[Matchlock]

To the mods:

Though there are some attachments in this thread, I noticed that the paper clip announcing them was missing on the main page.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Chris,

Now I understand your partiality for those daggers - it's no wonder at all as the illustrated Frontiersman sample doubtlessly corresponds to, or is well based on, the so-called Maximilian type of ca. 1500 German Grosses Messer and contemporary daggers, showing the same stylized bird's head pommel.

Sadly my scanner is on strike at the moment but I will try and post some originals of ca. 1500 soon.

From my computer archives, I attach details showing the latest form of a bird's head pommel on a backsword, from a painting by Lucas Cranach the Elder of 1535, titled Judith with the head of Holofernes.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Chris,

For plenty of reference, please also see my thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8630

Here is some more period artwork showing 15th and early 16th century bird's head pommels, plus a few others.

From top:

From the Constitutio Criminalis Bambergensis (Bambergische Peinliche Halsgerichtsordnung), 1507: 2 woodcuts

From the Wurzach altar by Hans Multscher, 1437: 1 detail

By Albrecht Dürer, Nuremberg, 1519: 1 image

From the Arnstädter Auferstehungsaltar (the Arnstadt Resurrection altar), Thuringia, Germany, ca. 1430: 2 details

Detail from a woodcut, ca. 1505.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

To the mods:

Though there are some attachments in this thread, I noticed that the paper clip announcing them was missing on the main page.

Best,
Michael

Thank you so much, Lee?,

for mending that so promptly.

With all my best,
Michael

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi Michael,

Wonderful examples of period bird's head pommels that do recall the "mystery dagger" as well as the much (much ) later Bucks... You know, I have to admit - I never have once stopped to consider the pommel of the Bucks which are indeed stylized bird's head pommels, as I have always fixated on the blade profile.

So much for my powers of observation, eh?

Regards,

Chris

[Matchlock]

Hi Chris,

Thank you so much, and please do take care of your super powers of observation in 2011, which began in Germany 47 mins ago!

Best regards,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi there,

I finally found other samples of such dagger knives, i.e. one-edged daggers, in Thalhoffer's Fencing Books of 1459, together with various more curious daggers and devices you would not have believed they had existed.

Please note the 'bladesmith marks'.

This also backs up what I said about Bosch and his predilection of depicting oldfashioned pieces of accouterment that were still in use with the rural population decades after their make.

I realize this is not a proof of their actual existence, just one more evidence of their being characteristic of the Gothic style.

Enjoy, and best,
Michael

[laEspadaAncha]

Good Morning Michael & a Very Happy New Year!

Wonderful reference, and I thank you for posting it. The deeply curved belly of the 3rd example in the 1st panel (counting left-to-right, top-to-bottom) does indeed resemble our "mystery dagger" in blade profile.

Considering the fanciful appearance of the cut out work along the blade spine in this illustrated example, I can't help but think that if it existed, then Bosch's dagger likely existed as well (especially in light of the other reasons discussed in the thread). Given the details which seem to indicate he painted the same dagger in two of his works, I have to wonder if he had some personal connection to this particular dagger...

Do you by chance have larger scanned copies / images of these pages available? If so, I can PM you my email address, as I would like to have them on hand for reference. I find the turned wooden grips to be interesting, as well as the exposed tang on a couple examples (that appear to be twisted?).

Regards,

Chris

[mrwizard]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Do you by chance have larger scanned copies / images of these pages available?

http://www.kb.dk/da/nb/materialer/ha...ott-2_290.html

Best Regards,
Thilo