Labels, true or just heaps of bull****

David · 17th December 2010, 04:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

The binding follows the same basic principle as these examples. In these pictures the stick is bent round the stone. In my example it is two sticks, the main long handle stick and a smaller holding stick, both bent to hold the ball form stone.

I'm afraid that i agree with spiral here. The examples you show are not bound in the same way at all. I see no notching in your stone. In the new examples you show the rawhide is not bound across the stone and i see no excessive use od plant resin to hold it all together.

VANDOO · 17th December 2010, 05:52 AM

ITS DIFFICULT TO TELL WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT FROM THE PICTURES. I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS FORM OF CLUB OR ANYTHING RESEMBELING IT AND THE USE OF SUCH A THICK UNFINISHED COATING OF AMBER /RESIN IS A NEW ONE FOR ME.
FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IT WOULD APPEAR THE WOOD WAS EITHER A NATURAL FORK OR HAS BEEN SPLIT. THE STONE WAS PLACED IN THE FORK AND THE TWO ENDS LASHED TOGETHER ABOVE IT, THEN SENU OR RAWHIDE STRAPS CROSSED TO FURTHER SECURE IT AND THEN RESIN APPLIED COVERING THE ENTIRE THING.
IS THE STONE COVERED IN HIDE OR IS IT POSSIBLE TO SEE THE ACTUAL STONE?? IF YOU CAN SEE THE STONE CAN YOU TELL IF A GROVE HAS BEEN PECKED IN IT WHERE THE TWO WOOD STRAPS ARE.
WHAT ABOUT THE BEADS ON THE TASSELS ON THE OTHER CLUB ARE THEY OLD OR NEW?? IF NEW IT MAY BE SAFE TO ASSUME THE PAINT AND CLUB ARE MORE RECENT.

katana · 17th December 2010, 03:08 PM

Hi Tim,
2 thoughts about the clubs construction. I think the binding is likely sinew, certainly looks like it, with its 'striation', fiberous look. Dried sinew can look like plant cordage. Secondly, perhaps the stone became slightly loose within its binding and, the resin applied as a 'quick fix' to re-secure it. Dampness seriously affects sinew (and raw hide, for that matter) causing it to become pliable and stretchy again (causing 'looseness') alternatively the wood could have dried out and shrunk in a manner that the contact between the stone and branch 'lessened'.

No idea as to origin or authenticity.

As a footnote. I belong to a Paleo forum....many members construct spears , clubs etc using traditional techniques and materials. I am sure that some of these find their way into the mainstream market as authentic. I do not believe they are necessarily made with the intent to deceive, but think there are dodgy buyers whom artificial age them and pass them off as genuine.

Kind Regards David

katana · 17th December 2010, 03:53 PM

There has been a few Sioux items, sold at auction attributed to the Black Pipe state Bank, South Dakota.

This article, ties the Sioux with Black pipe.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B...dakota&f=false

It would appear that the Black Pipe collection mainly consisted of Sioux artifacts.

Regards David

David · 17th December 2010, 04:25 PM

You can see a lot of examples of different types of Souix war clubs here:
http://www.google.com/images?q=sioux...w=1422&bih=698

Tim Simmons · 17th December 2010, 04:48 PM

David ie Katana, you are right on further inspection the binding is indeed sinew. I know the stones in the last pictures I post have a groove, I was interested in the bent round and bound stick. The resin that covers the stone is softer {than the stuff I have} in that it does not dry as brittle and if you wanted to you could force your nail or other object into it. I am pleased to see pictures of all the ball forward club which suggest this follows a traditional form. I have said it would not take a master to reproduce items like this. If this is a hobby piece then it was done long ago. I like to think I have been collecting old looking stuff for a few years at least. Does it really look new in the pictures?

Tim Simmons · 17th December 2010, 06:11 PM

This is a very curious feature to this club, four tiny Zinc? pins. There are sections of under painting on this club that show through the raw hide. The wet hide has been bound when wet to harden on the club stick. The raw hide on this club is not as fine parchment like as on the bound stone club. Although the stone on this club is small I think it could still crack your skull equally there must have been dance clubs? The pins are a strange addition?

I am still on the fence, but a great deal more of my weight is leaning to possible authentic pieces.

17th December 2010, 04:48 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Still steaming along. David ie Katana, you are right on further inspection the binding is indeed sinew. I know the stones in the last pictures I post have a groove, I was interested in the bent round and bound stick. The resin that covers the stone is softer {than the stuff I have} in that it does not dry as brittle and if you wanted to you could force your nail or other object into it. I am pleased to see pictures of all the ball forward club which suggest this follows a traditional form. I have said it would not take a master to reproduce items like this. If this is a hobby piece then it was done long ago. I like to think I have been collecting old looking stuff for a few years at least. Does it really look new in the pictures?

17th December 2010, 06:11 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	The Flint Head Club This is a very curious feature to this club, four tiny Zinc? pins. There are sections of under painting on this club that show through the raw hide. The wet hide has been bound when wet to harden on the club stick. The raw hide on this club is not as fine parchment like as on the bound stone club. Although the stone on this club is small I think it could still crack your skull equally there must have been dance clubs? The pins are a strange addition? I am still on the fence, but a great deal more of my weight is leaning to possible authentic pieces. Attached Images

17th December 2010, 05:52 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ITS DIFFICULT TO TELL WHAT WE ARE LOOKING AT FROM THE PICTURES. I HAVE NOT SEEN THIS FORM OF CLUB OR ANYTHING RESEMBELING IT AND THE USE OF SUCH A THICK UNFINISHED COATING OF AMBER /RESIN IS A NEW ONE FOR ME. FROM WHAT I CAN SEE IT WOULD APPEAR THE WOOD WAS EITHER A NATURAL FORK OR HAS BEEN SPLIT. THE STONE WAS PLACED IN THE FORK AND THE TWO ENDS LASHED TOGETHER ABOVE IT, THEN SENU OR RAWHIDE STRAPS CROSSED TO FURTHER SECURE IT AND THEN RESIN APPLIED COVERING THE ENTIRE THING. IS THE STONE COVERED IN HIDE OR IS IT POSSIBLE TO SEE THE ACTUAL STONE?? IF YOU CAN SEE THE STONE CAN YOU TELL IF A GROVE HAS BEEN PECKED IN IT WHERE THE TWO WOOD STRAPS ARE. WHAT ABOUT THE BEADS ON THE TASSELS ON THE OTHER CLUB ARE THEY OLD OR NEW?? IF NEW IT MAY BE SAFE TO ASSUME THE PAINT AND CLUB ARE MORE RECENT.

17th December 2010, 03:08 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, 2 thoughts about the clubs construction. I think the binding is likely sinew, certainly looks like it, with its 'striation', fiberous look. Dried sinew can look like plant cordage. Secondly, perhaps the stone became slightly loose within its binding and, the resin applied as a 'quick fix' to re-secure it. Dampness seriously affects sinew (and raw hide, for that matter) causing it to become pliable and stretchy again (causing 'looseness') alternatively the wood could have dried out and shrunk in a manner that the contact between the stone and branch 'lessened'. No idea as to origin or authenticity. As a footnote. I belong to a Paleo forum....many members construct spears , clubs etc using traditional techniques and materials. I am sure that some of these find their way into the mainstream market as authentic. I do not believe they are necessarily made with the intent to deceive, but think there are dodgy buyers whom artificial age them and pass them off as genuine. Kind Regards David

17th December 2010, 03:53 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	There has been a few Sioux items, sold at auction attributed to the Black Pipe state Bank, South Dakota. This article, ties the Sioux with Black pipe. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=B...dakota&f=false It would appear that the Black Pipe collection mainly consisted of Sioux artifacts. Regards David

17th December 2010, 04:25 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	You can see a lot of examples of different types of Souix war clubs here: http://www.google.com/images?q=sioux...w=1422&bih=698