Javanese machete??

Kiai Carita · 23rd June 2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

I picked up some new stuff I would like some info/opinions about so I will show them in some new threads.
The first one is a machete that I cann't place very well. I looked in the book by Van Zonneveld and found some possibilities. For me it is a javanese piece.
Parang Bengkok, Ruding Lengon (I guess not) or most likely Telabuna.

In my village this is called either 'arit gedhe' (big sicle) or 'bendho'... It is commonly used in Java to cut firewood and other round the forest-garden-chores. Usually the hilt is not as nice as this one. It is definitely a peasant's utilitarian weapon, usually forged locally by pandhe.

Salam.

Henk · 23rd June 2005, 09:05 PM

Kiai,

Thanks for your answer. An arit gedhe (big sicle) as you called it, is certainly true. But a bendho is, if I'm not mistaken, more a golok axe shaped machete. If you think a piece of metal in the hole that forms the sickle, it becomes an axe shaped weapon. But as you said, forged localy by a pandhe you can have your wishes, I suppose. If I look in the book by Van Zonneveld I see a drawing of a bendo in what I suppose is a traditional one, just like the one I own. If this particular weapon is a bendo, as you say, may I presume that there are more varities in the shape of a bendo?

Thanks and regards, Henk

Kiai Carita · 24th June 2005, 05:30 AM

[QUOTE=Henk]Kiai,

If I look in the book by Van Zonneveld I see a drawing of a bendo in what I suppose is a traditional one, just like the one I own. If this particular weapon is a bendo, as you say, may I presume that there are more varities in the shape of a bendo?

Yes, Sir, there are basically two variations of the bendho one like this photo and the other without a pointed tip. If without the pointed tip it is never called an arit gedhe, always a bendho. The ones with a tip like this photo are often called a bendho around and West of Yogyakarta, but never East of Solo. If the bottom has an axe-like part then it is called a kudi, rare, usually with a longer handle.

Regards,
Kiai Carita.

Henk · 24th June 2005, 08:49 AM

Thanks Kiai,

Through this wonderful forum we learn every day from each other!!!

Regards, Henk

Ian · 25th June 2005, 12:58 AM

Henk:

This is an example of the golok form of bendo, similar to the one shown in van Zonneveld.

The blade is very heavy and thick, with spine thickness 3/8 inch at the hilt and tapering to 3/16 inch about a 1/4-inch before the tip. The blade length is 9 1/4 inches and maximum width is 2 1/4 inches. The hilt is nicely carved.

The scabbard has been repaired and resembles the style shown in van Zonneveld.

This one is probably from Java.

Ian.

marto suwignyo · 25th June 2005, 01:38 AM

Kiai yth

I wonder if you could help me with something.

You tell us that the agricultural tool with a recurved tip, and known as a bendho around Jogja is never called this east of Solo .

Now, when I live in Java, my house is in Palur, which is east of Solo, and we call the tool shown by Henk a bendho, and we also call another tool that is essentially the same as a European billhook or pruning hook, a bendho.The tool that we call a bendho is similar to Henk`s tool, but without the swelling , the blade being only recurved, this one sometimes gets called a parang, which of course it is, as parang is generic, and bendho is specific.

My wife comes from Pare, near Kediri, and that`s a long way east of Solo. I showed her the picture of Henk`s bendho and asked what she would call it. She told me that she would call it bendho. I then got my own bendho from the garden shed ( this one came from Boyolali, and looks like a European billhook or pruning hook) and asked her what that was called in Pare. Again she told me it was a bendho. I am inclined to believe that her identifications are accurate, as her father owned a business which amongst other things, produced tools commercially, and my wife herself once owned a dairy farm.

Neither I nor my wife have ever heard this tool shown by Henk, referred to as an "arit gedhe", and our understanding of an arit gedhe is of something quite different to what Henk has shown. Again, neither of us know of a tool called a kudhi, but I did show the picture of Henk`s tool to a friend who comes from Jember, and who has lived in both Bogor and Pamekesan, and he immediately identified it as a kudhi. The tool with a curved blade and a little axe-like projection near the handle I have only seen a couple of times, and my notes tell me that it is called a "luke"(pron:lukeh).

I understand very well that the names of things can change from village to village, so in order to help improve my own understanding of Javanese terminology I would greatly appreciate it if you could tell me :-

1) the approximate location of the place where Henk`s tool is known as an "arit gedhe".

2) what a tool that looks like Henk`s tool, but without the swelling in the blade---that is, something like a European billhook or pruning hook---would be called in this place.

3) the approximate location where the tool with the axe-like projection near the handle is known as a "kudhi".

Please understand:- this is in no way a challenge to you; I understand that you are Javanese, and I believe that you would know exactly what things are called in your own village. My enquiry is simply to assist my own understanding of the variations in usage of the Javanese language.

Thank you for your assistance.

marto suwignyo · 25th June 2005, 01:45 AM

Ian, in my area we would never call this a bendho, we would call it a golok. For us, a tool must have a recurved blade to be a bedho.

Incidentally, I keep referring to these things as "tools", which of course they are, but in earlier times there were weapons that took the same or similar forms. You can see examples of these in the Musium Radyopustoko in Solo.

Ian · 25th June 2005, 03:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marto suwignyo

Ian, in my area we would never call this a bendho, we would call it a golok. For us, a tool must have a recurved blade to be a bedho.

Marto:

Thanks for clarifying the name for this tool. I, too, called this particular example a golok when I acquired it. Then I found a nearly identical chopper in v. Zonneveld (p. 34) which he identified as a bendo from West Java. So, even Mr. v. Z. can make a mistake, or perhaps there is a regional variation in terms that differs from your own experience. In any case, it is very confusing for someone from a different culture trying to understand these terms from a distance.

I would find this variable terminology often when I traveled in SE Asia some years ago. The distinction between badik-sewar-rencong-tumbak and a few other knives just left my head hurting. Every time I thought I had these sorted out, a local person would throw in a completely different interpretation of which was which.

People such as yourself who can bring some direct experience of what names are applied to these various weapons/tools is very helpful. Thanks.

Ian.

PS: When you speak of a "recurved" blade, are you referring to the back of the blade or the cutting edge? When we discuss Indian and Islamic blades, such as the yataghan or sossun pattah, "recurved" is usually applied to the shape of the spine of the blade.

Kiai Carita · 25th June 2005, 08:16 AM

[QUOTE=marto suwignyo]Kiai yth

Marto Suwignyo asks:

1) the approximate location of the place where Henk`s tool is known as an "arit gedhe".

2) what a tool that looks like Henk`s tool, but without the swelling in the blade---that is, something like a European billhook or pruning hook---would be called in this place.

3) the approximate location where the tool with the axe-like projection near the handle is known as a "kudhi".

...

Kiai Carita answers: Firstly I should have not used the word never, never this never that East of Solo or West of Yogya...as you say names of everyday objects can vary from village to village and also, from generation to generation.

1. I have heard and used the word arit gedhe to refer to that blade in the area of the Madiun residency and even Wonogiri.

2. Even without the belly it would still be either bendho or arit gedhe. Arit gedhe is not arit-sing-gedhe.

3 The location of the kudi, I think you might find in remote West and East Jawa, but most definitely in the PAST. Visit areas under influence of Demak in the 15th century and you will see this tool used by many people. The small, pusaka version of a kudi is called a kujang.

Hormat
Kiai Carita.

25th June 2005, 12:58 AM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	Henk: This is an example of the golok form of bendo, similar to the one shown in van Zonneveld. The blade is very heavy and thick, with spine thickness 3/8 inch at the hilt and tapering to 3/16 inch about a 1/4-inch before the tip. The blade length is 9 1/4 inches and maximum width is 2 1/4 inches. The hilt is nicely carved. The scabbard has been repaired and resembles the style shown in van Zonneveld. This one is probably from Java. Ian. Attached Images

23rd June 2005, 09:05 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Kiai, Thanks for your answer. An arit gedhe (big sicle) as you called it, is certainly true. But a bendho is, if I'm not mistaken, more a golok axe shaped machete. If you think a piece of metal in the hole that forms the sickle, it becomes an axe shaped weapon. But as you said, forged localy by a pandhe you can have your wishes, I suppose. If I look in the book by Van Zonneveld I see a drawing of a bendo in what I suppose is a traditional one, just like the one I own. If this particular weapon is a bendo, as you say, may I presume that there are more varities in the shape of a bendo? Thanks and regards, Henk

24th June 2005, 05:30 AM	#3
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	[QUOTE=Henk]Kiai, If I look in the book by Van Zonneveld I see a drawing of a bendo in what I suppose is a traditional one, just like the one I own. If this particular weapon is a bendo, as you say, may I presume that there are more varities in the shape of a bendo? Yes, Sir, there are basically two variations of the bendho one like this photo and the other without a pointed tip. If without the pointed tip it is never called an arit gedhe, always a bendho. The ones with a tip like this photo are often called a bendho around and West of Yogyakarta, but never East of Solo. If the bottom has an axe-like part then it is called a kudi, rare, usually with a longer handle. Regards, Kiai Carita.

24th June 2005, 08:49 AM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Thanks Kiai, Through this wonderful forum we learn every day from each other!!! Regards, Henk

25th June 2005, 01:38 AM	#6
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Kiai yth I wonder if you could help me with something. You tell us that the agricultural tool with a recurved tip, and known as a bendho around Jogja is never called this east of Solo . Now, when I live in Java, my house is in Palur, which is east of Solo, and we call the tool shown by Henk a bendho, and we also call another tool that is essentially the same as a European billhook or pruning hook, a bendho.The tool that we call a bendho is similar to Henk`s tool, but without the swelling , the blade being only recurved, this one sometimes gets called a parang, which of course it is, as parang is generic, and bendho is specific. My wife comes from Pare, near Kediri, and that`s a long way east of Solo. I showed her the picture of Henk`s bendho and asked what she would call it. She told me that she would call it bendho. I then got my own bendho from the garden shed ( this one came from Boyolali, and looks like a European billhook or pruning hook) and asked her what that was called in Pare. Again she told me it was a bendho. I am inclined to believe that her identifications are accurate, as her father owned a business which amongst other things, produced tools commercially, and my wife herself once owned a dairy farm. Neither I nor my wife have ever heard this tool shown by Henk, referred to as an "arit gedhe", and our understanding of an arit gedhe is of something quite different to what Henk has shown. Again, neither of us know of a tool called a kudhi, but I did show the picture of Henk`s tool to a friend who comes from Jember, and who has lived in both Bogor and Pamekesan, and he immediately identified it as a kudhi. The tool with a curved blade and a little axe-like projection near the handle I have only seen a couple of times, and my notes tell me that it is called a "luke"(pron:lukeh). I understand very well that the names of things can change from village to village, so in order to help improve my own understanding of Javanese terminology I would greatly appreciate it if you could tell me :- 1) the approximate location of the place where Henk`s tool is known as an "arit gedhe". 2) what a tool that looks like Henk`s tool, but without the swelling in the blade---that is, something like a European billhook or pruning hook---would be called in this place. 3) the approximate location where the tool with the axe-like projection near the handle is known as a "kudhi". Please understand:- this is in no way a challenge to you; I understand that you are Javanese, and I believe that you would know exactly what things are called in your own village. My enquiry is simply to assist my own understanding of the variations in usage of the Javanese language. Thank you for your assistance.

25th June 2005, 01:45 AM	#7
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	Ian, in my area we would never call this a bendho, we would call it a golok. For us, a tool must have a recurved blade to be a bedho. Incidentally, I keep referring to these things as "tools", which of course they are, but in earlier times there were weapons that took the same or similar forms. You can see examples of these in the Musium Radyopustoko in Solo.

25th June 2005, 08:16 AM	#9
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	[QUOTE=marto suwignyo]Kiai yth Marto Suwignyo asks: 1) the approximate location of the place where Henk`s tool is known as an "arit gedhe". 2) what a tool that looks like Henk`s tool, but without the swelling in the blade---that is, something like a European billhook or pruning hook---would be called in this place. 3) the approximate location where the tool with the axe-like projection near the handle is known as a "kudhi". ... Kiai Carita answers: Firstly I should have not used the word never, never this never that East of Solo or West of Yogya...as you say names of everyday objects can vary from village to village and also, from generation to generation. 1. I have heard and used the word arit gedhe to refer to that blade in the area of the Madiun residency and even Wonogiri. 2. Even without the belly it would still be either bendho or arit gedhe. Arit gedhe is not arit-sing-gedhe. 3 The location of the kudi, I think you might find in remote West and East Jawa, but most definitely in the PAST. Visit areas under influence of Demak in the 15th century and you will see this tool used by many people. The small, pusaka version of a kudi is called a kujang. Hormat Kiai Carita.