Labels, true or just heaps of bull****

Tim Simmons · 12th December 2010, 07:03 PM

Still undecided, but hurting somebody would be no problem. Some similar concepts of club. I could imagine hitting with the small stone club bringing great honour like the coup stick. I could just in dream land

laEspadaAncha · 12th December 2010, 09:15 PM

From a dealer's perspective, I would think they are probably a necessity. Tags add a certain panache, a 2-cent provenance that not only frees up the dealer's time (as he or she doesn't have to answer basic attribution-related questions that are addressed by the tags), but IMO provide a certain degree of psychological comfort level for the prospective buyer.

That being said, as you know, you buy the club, not the tag...

Now... I do know one dealer (of a certain TV show fame) who goes a step further and uses antiqued cards with yellowed twine. Every item tag looks as old the as item to which it is attached!

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2010, 05:24 PM

This is what the auction house says.

Tim:

Yes, we did sell a portion of a collection reputed to be from the Black Pipe collection.

The collector that sold these items said he purchased them in South Dakota. We have not other provenance for the items sold. Only his word.

This is all that I recall about the same.

Hope this is of some help.

Jayson Shobe

So are these pieces from that portion or another? Am I decided they are genuine/authentic? well perhaps I could be. It all depends on what % of people one believes involved in the circle are avaricious toerag liars or honest caring and sharing

thats life. One thing is I have learnt much about Native American tanning. I know this material would not need the talents of master art forgers to reproduce. Obviouly I would like to believe they are the real thing. I do know much effort went into these, the chioce of skins. tanning and the hole in the flint stone. If so I got a good deal

.

Lew · 13th December 2010, 06:23 PM

Tim

As far as Native American clubs go I always treat them as fakes due to the fact that real old ones are so rare they are in museums and private collections most go for thousands of dollars. Although the club on the left looks good to me but take the info provided by the seller with a large grain of salt

Billman · 13th December 2010, 06:41 PM

Labels and certificates of provenenace are only worth anything if you know the reputation of the dealer/seller... Even so, reputable dealers get sucked in - see my comments on a Pennsylvanian German billhook (fascine knife) offered for sale in the USA in 2010 that was bought in Germany in 2009...
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...?t=6972&page=2

I have also seen many European edged tools that only date from the mid to late 19th century being sold as medieval, complete with a Certificate of Authenticity.. The shape and the method of manufacture may go back to the Middle Ages - the give away is the maker's stamp... name and village allow a precise dating... Materials are much more difficult to date - late 19th century mild steel was very similar to wrought iron, and in fact wrought iron was still being made as late as the early 20th century (and is being made again in the UK at the Blists Hill Museum at Coalbrookdale). Even in the 21st century, Bernard Solon, in Orléans (France) is forge welding high carbon steel to a softer mild steel body for his vineyard hoes.... He also uses the same name and trademark as his great grandfather, Alexis - a few years' rust and a 21st century tool will be indistinguishable from a mid 19th century one... Not a fake, but a continuation of a family tradition....

David · 13th December 2010, 06:48 PM

Sorry to still be so doubtful, but doesn't the paint on that second example look just a little bit too fresh to be authentic...

fearn · 13th December 2010, 07:02 PM

David, if a Lakota craftsman made it on the Rez back not so very long ago, is it genuine or not? I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it's definitely antique.

That's as opposed to me making said stick out of local ingredients, seeing as I'm white and not in South Dakota. Any Lakota club I made would definitely be fake.

Best,

F

VANDOO · 13th December 2010, 06:38 PM

IF GIVEN THE CHOICE I WOULD RATHER HAVE A TAG WITH SOME INFORMATION THAN FOR ANY INFORMATION TO BE OMITED AND LOST. THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS NOW GOES WITH THESE ITEMS AS THEY TRAVEL ALONG FROM ONE COLLECTOR TO ANOTHER. THE TAGS ARE RECENT BUT THE INFORMATION MAY OR MAY NOT BE CORRECT EVEN IF THEY DID COME FROM THE COLECTION MENTIONED IT DOES NOT MAKE IT CERTIAN THEY ARE AUTHENTIC. MANY MUSEUMS AND COLECTIONS TRIBAL OR OTHERWISE HAVE AQUIRED ITEMS THAT ARE TRIBAL MADE BUT NOT OLD. I HAVE EXAMPLES OF WEAPONS IN MY COLECTION THAT ARE NOT OLD BUT ARE WELL MADE, I CAN'T AFFORD AN OLD EXAMPLE SO SETTLE FOR A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FORM IF IT IS FAIRLY PRICED.
BOTH OF YOUR CLUBS SHOW GOOD WORKMANSHIP AND FOLLOW TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS IN THEIR CONSTRUCTION. NEITHER ONE IS OF THE MORE ATTRACTIVE FORMS OF AMERICAN WAR CLUBS. THEY ARE THE ONES USUALY FAKED AS THEY BRING MORE MONEY. IT IS LIKELY THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS IS REAL AS WHO EVER HEARD OF THE COLLECTION BEFORE?? IF IT SAID IT CAME FROM THE MET OR LOUVE I WOULD WORRY MORE.

THESE CLUBS ADD TWO NEW FORMS OF CLUB TO YOUR COLECTION AND LOOK GOOD SO ENJOY

12th December 2010, 07:03 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Still undecided, but hurting somebody would be no problem. Some similar concepts of club. I could imagine hitting with the small stone club bringing great honour like the coup stick. I could just in dream land Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th December 2010 at 07:20 PM. Reason: SPELLING

12th December 2010, 09:15 PM	#2
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	From a dealer's perspective, I would think they are probably a necessity. Tags add a certain panache, a 2-cent provenance that not only frees up the dealer's time (as he or she doesn't have to answer basic attribution-related questions that are addressed by the tags), but IMO provide a certain degree of psychological comfort level for the prospective buyer. That being said, as you know, you buy the club, not the tag... Now... I do know one dealer (of a certain TV show fame) who goes a step further and uses antiqued cards with yellowed twine. Every item tag looks as old the as item to which it is attached!

13th December 2010, 05:24 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	This is what the auction house says. Tim: Yes, we did sell a portion of a collection reputed to be from the Black Pipe collection. The collector that sold these items said he purchased them in South Dakota. We have not other provenance for the items sold. Only his word. This is all that I recall about the same. Hope this is of some help. Jayson Shobe So are these pieces from that portion or another? Am I decided they are genuine/authentic? well perhaps I could be. It all depends on what % of people one believes involved in the circle are avaricious toerag liars or honest caring and sharing thats life. One thing is I have learnt much about Native American tanning. I know this material would not need the talents of master art forgers to reproduce. Obviouly I would like to believe they are the real thing. I do know much effort went into these, the chioce of skins. tanning and the hole in the flint stone. If so I got a good deal .

13th December 2010, 06:23 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim As far as Native American clubs go I always treat them as fakes due to the fact that real old ones are so rare they are in museums and private collections most go for thousands of dollars. Although the club on the left looks good to me but take the info provided by the seller with a large grain of salt

13th December 2010, 06:41 PM	#5
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Labels and certificates of provenenace are only worth anything if you know the reputation of the dealer/seller... Even so, reputable dealers get sucked in - see my comments on a Pennsylvanian German billhook (fascine knife) offered for sale in the USA in 2010 that was bought in Germany in 2009... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...?t=6972&page=2 I have also seen many European edged tools that only date from the mid to late 19th century being sold as medieval, complete with a Certificate of Authenticity.. The shape and the method of manufacture may go back to the Middle Ages - the give away is the maker's stamp... name and village allow a precise dating... Materials are much more difficult to date - late 19th century mild steel was very similar to wrought iron, and in fact wrought iron was still being made as late as the early 20th century (and is being made again in the UK at the Blists Hill Museum at Coalbrookdale). Even in the 21st century, Bernard Solon, in Orléans (France) is forge welding high carbon steel to a softer mild steel body for his vineyard hoes.... He also uses the same name and trademark as his great grandfather, Alexis - a few years' rust and a 21st century tool will be indistinguishable from a mid 19th century one... Not a fake, but a continuation of a family tradition....

13th December 2010, 06:48 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Sorry to still be so doubtful, but doesn't the paint on that second example look just a little bit too fresh to be authentic...

13th December 2010, 07:02 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	David, if a Lakota craftsman made it on the Rez back not so very long ago, is it genuine or not? I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it's definitely antique. That's as opposed to me making said stick out of local ingredients, seeing as I'm white and not in South Dakota. Any Lakota club I made would definitely be fake. Best, F

13th December 2010, 06:38 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IF GIVEN THE CHOICE I WOULD RATHER HAVE A TAG WITH SOME INFORMATION THAN FOR ANY INFORMATION TO BE OMITED AND LOST. THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS NOW GOES WITH THESE ITEMS AS THEY TRAVEL ALONG FROM ONE COLLECTOR TO ANOTHER. THE TAGS ARE RECENT BUT THE INFORMATION MAY OR MAY NOT BE CORRECT EVEN IF THEY DID COME FROM THE COLECTION MENTIONED IT DOES NOT MAKE IT CERTIAN THEY ARE AUTHENTIC. MANY MUSEUMS AND COLECTIONS TRIBAL OR OTHERWISE HAVE AQUIRED ITEMS THAT ARE TRIBAL MADE BUT NOT OLD. I HAVE EXAMPLES OF WEAPONS IN MY COLECTION THAT ARE NOT OLD BUT ARE WELL MADE, I CAN'T AFFORD AN OLD EXAMPLE SO SETTLE FOR A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FORM IF IT IS FAIRLY PRICED. BOTH OF YOUR CLUBS SHOW GOOD WORKMANSHIP AND FOLLOW TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS IN THEIR CONSTRUCTION. NEITHER ONE IS OF THE MORE ATTRACTIVE FORMS OF AMERICAN WAR CLUBS. THEY ARE THE ONES USUALY FAKED AS THEY BRING MORE MONEY. IT IS LIKELY THE INFORMATION ON THE TAGS IS REAL AS WHO EVER HEARD OF THE COLLECTION BEFORE?? IF IT SAID IT CAME FROM THE MET OR LOUVE I WOULD WORRY MORE. THESE CLUBS ADD TWO NEW FORMS OF CLUB TO YOUR COLECTION AND LOOK GOOD SO ENJOY