Fossil Molar Talisman Research Needed

VANDOO · 8th December 2010, 05:01 AM

THE 3 KERIS PICTURED ARE RECENT BUT I HAVE SEEN A FEW EXAMPLES IN OLD POSTS ON THE FORUM THAT SEEMED TO HAVE MORE AGE. I HAVE SEEN IT USED ON SOME PHILIPPINE WEAPONS AS WELL BUT IT IS MORE RARE. SO I WOULDN'T JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT ALL ARE RECENTLY MADE.
THESE STEGODON FOSSILS WOULD BE AT LEAST 11 THOUSAND YEARS OLD AND MOST LIKELY OLDER AS THE MAMOTH AND MASTADON BECAME EXTINT AROUND THEN.
I CAN'T IDENTIFY THE MATERIAL IN THE FIRST PICTURE BUT THE MATERIAL USED ON THE KERIS AND THE 3 FRAGMENTS APPEAR TO BE FROM THE SPECIES OF STEGODON FOUND IN JAVA. THERE HAS BEEN INTREST IN FOSSIL TEETH SINCE ANCIENT TIMES SO IT IS VERY LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN USED. SUCH TEETH HAVE BEEN REFERRED TO AS DRAGONS TEETH AND MAGICAL POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO THEM AND HAVE BEEN USED IN MEDICINE AND AS TAILSMAN FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
SO USE ON ANCIENT WEAPONS IS A POSSIBILITY WHERE STABLE MATERIAL COULD BE FOUND. I COULD ONLY FIND ONE PICTURE OF A MORO SWORD USING IT AS A POMMEL.
THE PATTERN IN THE STONE IS DETERMINED BY THE DIRECTION IT IS CUT IN. I HAVE A SQUARE BLOCK OF JAVA STEGODON AND THE PATTERN IS DIFFERENT ON ALL 6 SIDES, SO THERE CAN BE QUITE A LOT OF VARIATION EVEN IN ONE TOOTH. THERE ARE MANY OTHER KINDS OF FOSSIL ELEPHANT TEETH AS WELL AS TITANOTHERE AND OTHERS SO THERE ARE A LOT OF VARIATIONS POSSIBLE. BUT FINDING GOOD STABLE MATERIAL IS A PROBLEM. MOST OF THE FOSSIL IVORY CARVED IN BALI INTO PENDANTS ECT. ARE FROM SIBERIA OR ALASKA MOSTLY MAMMOTH TUSK IS USED.

Battara · 8th December 2010, 05:44 AM

Well I agree with you Barry - I have a barong with this molar ivory. However, I don't have any information on this so I thought there would be more written on this use in the keris world since they use it more often.

Battara · 25th October 2014, 09:16 PM

Since I originally started this thread, I found finally found one mention in one source from George Frederick Kunz in his book Ivory and the Elephant in Art, in Archaeology, and in Science, 1916, p348:

“The molar of an elephant has been found in the island of Luzon, Philippines. This was probably brought thither from India. On the island of Mindanao a tooth of Stegodon trigonocephalus mindanaoensis was discovered. This genus stands between the mastodon and the modern elephant, although more nearly resembling the latter. This is the only instance on record of the finding of such remains in the Philippine Islands. The tooth was found in the north- western part of the island, and is at present in the Ethno- logical Museum at Dresden (No. 2679). The discovery was made by Semper, who described it as "a tooth of the war god Tagbusu of the Manobos, only to be worn by a Bagani (a priest or a prince); it was used as a talisman."
The tooth is bound with varicolored strings, so attached that it could be worn suspended.”

If you folks find any other information, please post or let me know.

I will also post this in the general weapons forum.

David · 25th October 2014, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Would I be correct in now assuming that the rare use of this material in pre-WWII days would be for the unusual and rare looks alone? Nothing in Moro or Filipino (much less Indonesia) lore mentions this material.

José, i really can't remember seeing too much of this material used in pre-WWII keris dress. It seems mostly to be a fairly contemporary usage. Somebody will now probably post some old keris hilt that they have provenance on for late 19th century or something, but when you say "rare use" i would have to agree that old examples of this material in keris dress is indeed rare and i would say that yes, that would explain why there is no lore to be found that is attached to it because most probably none exists.

Battara · 25th October 2014, 10:05 PM

Thank you David. I just edited my original last post and we must have posted at the same time.

Thank you anyway. You folks have been kind and helpful.

David · 25th October 2014, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you David. I just edited my original last post and we must have posted at the same time.

Ah, i see you changes now. The reference is a bit misplaced on the Keris Forum however, since we only discuss Indonesian keris here. I am still not familiar with any talismanic application of such material there, though that doesn't mean there is none, of course. However, i was speaking solely of its use in Indonesian keris dress which in my understanding is a rather contemporary phenomenon.

A. G. Maisey · 26th October 2014, 01:06 PM

I think you're probably pretty right about contemporary use of this material David.

I don't know of any examples of really old hilts made of this stuff. I know of the existence of one hilt with some age, in the Radya Pustaka Museum in Solo, Jawa, but even that is likely to be post WWII, or maybe at most after 1900.

It is very difficult material to work, and I personally believe that none of this material was worked until craftsmen could get hold of dentist drills.

Similarly, I don't know of any talismanic properties attached to the stuff, and if any do surface, I'd put money on it that they're a pretty recent phenomenon.

8th December 2010, 05:01 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE 3 KERIS PICTURED ARE RECENT BUT I HAVE SEEN A FEW EXAMPLES IN OLD POSTS ON THE FORUM THAT SEEMED TO HAVE MORE AGE. I HAVE SEEN IT USED ON SOME PHILIPPINE WEAPONS AS WELL BUT IT IS MORE RARE. SO I WOULDN'T JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT ALL ARE RECENTLY MADE. THESE STEGODON FOSSILS WOULD BE AT LEAST 11 THOUSAND YEARS OLD AND MOST LIKELY OLDER AS THE MAMOTH AND MASTADON BECAME EXTINT AROUND THEN. I CAN'T IDENTIFY THE MATERIAL IN THE FIRST PICTURE BUT THE MATERIAL USED ON THE KERIS AND THE 3 FRAGMENTS APPEAR TO BE FROM THE SPECIES OF STEGODON FOUND IN JAVA. THERE HAS BEEN INTREST IN FOSSIL TEETH SINCE ANCIENT TIMES SO IT IS VERY LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN USED. SUCH TEETH HAVE BEEN REFERRED TO AS DRAGONS TEETH AND MAGICAL POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO THEM AND HAVE BEEN USED IN MEDICINE AND AS TAILSMAN FOR A VERY LONG TIME. SO USE ON ANCIENT WEAPONS IS A POSSIBILITY WHERE STABLE MATERIAL COULD BE FOUND. I COULD ONLY FIND ONE PICTURE OF A MORO SWORD USING IT AS A POMMEL. THE PATTERN IN THE STONE IS DETERMINED BY THE DIRECTION IT IS CUT IN. I HAVE A SQUARE BLOCK OF JAVA STEGODON AND THE PATTERN IS DIFFERENT ON ALL 6 SIDES, SO THERE CAN BE QUITE A LOT OF VARIATION EVEN IN ONE TOOTH. THERE ARE MANY OTHER KINDS OF FOSSIL ELEPHANT TEETH AS WELL AS TITANOTHERE AND OTHERS SO THERE ARE A LOT OF VARIATIONS POSSIBLE. BUT FINDING GOOD STABLE MATERIAL IS A PROBLEM. MOST OF THE FOSSIL IVORY CARVED IN BALI INTO PENDANTS ECT. ARE FROM SIBERIA OR ALASKA MOSTLY MAMMOTH TUSK IS USED. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 8th December 2010 at 05:39 AM.

25th October 2014, 09:16 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Since I originally started this thread, I found finally found one mention in one source from George Frederick Kunz in his book Ivory and the Elephant in Art, in Archaeology, and in Science, 1916, p348: “The molar of an elephant has been found in the island of Luzon, Philippines. This was probably brought thither from India. On the island of Mindanao a tooth of Stegodon trigonocephalus mindanaoensis was discovered. This genus stands between the mastodon and the modern elephant, although more nearly resembling the latter. This is the only instance on record of the finding of such remains in the Philippine Islands. The tooth was found in the north- western part of the island, and is at present in the Ethno- logical Museum at Dresden (No. 2679). The discovery was made by Semper, who described it as "a tooth of the war god Tagbusu of the Manobos, only to be worn by a Bagani (a priest or a prince); it was used as a talisman." The tooth is bound with varicolored strings, so attached that it could be worn suspended.” If you folks find any other information, please post or let me know. I will also post this in the general weapons forum. Last edited by Battara; 25th October 2014 at 10:04 PM.

8th December 2010, 05:44 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Well I agree with you Barry - I have a barong with this molar ivory. However, I don't have any information on this so I thought there would be more written on this use in the keris world since they use it more often.

25th October 2014, 10:05 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Thank you David. I just edited my original last post and we must have posted at the same time. Thank you anyway. You folks have been kind and helpful.

26th October 2014, 01:06 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	I think you're probably pretty right about contemporary use of this material David. I don't know of any examples of really old hilts made of this stuff. I know of the existence of one hilt with some age, in the Radya Pustaka Museum in Solo, Jawa, but even that is likely to be post WWII, or maybe at most after 1900. It is very difficult material to work, and I personally believe that none of this material was worked until craftsmen could get hold of dentist drills. Similarly, I don't know of any talismanic properties attached to the stuff, and if any do surface, I'd put money on it that they're a pretty recent phenomenon.