Fossil Molar Talisman Research Needed

VANDOO · 7th December 2010, 06:59 AM

THE FOSSIL TEETH I SAW BEING USED IN BALI AND ELSEWHERE WERE SAID TO HAVE COME FROM JAVA. IT WAS MORE STABLE THAN TEETH I HAVE SEEN COMMING FROM MANY OTHER LOCATIONS. THE ONE FROM JAVA WAS THE TOOTH OF A STEGODON A TYPE OF MASTODON. MAMMOTH, MASTODON AND EXTINCT ELEPHANT FOSSILS ARE WIDESPREAD I EVEN FIND THEM HERE WHERE I LIVE. THE TUSKS AND TEETH HERE ARE BRITTLE AND NOT SUITABLE FOR MUCH. THE ENAMEL ON THE TEETH COULD BE USED FOR TAILSMAN OR JEWLRY BUT NOT FOR A KERIS HANDLE.
PICTURE OF PARTIAL SKULL OF STEGODON TRIGONOCEPHALUS
AND 3 PICTURES OF A SINGLE STEGODON TOOTH FROM JAVA MEASURES 10.5 X 5.5 X 3 INCHES. ITS THE KIND I SAW BEING CARVED IN BALI.

Jean · 7th December 2010, 09:45 AM

I attach pictures of fossil teeth which I got in Sangiran (near Solo) some 15 years ago, they are too small for making a hilt and may not come from a mammoth at all. I think that this site was extensively excavated and is highly controlled so I doubt that fossil teeth are still available from this location and used for making artefacts, but it was probably the case in the past.
I attach a picture of a Jogja kris in my collection with the hilt & waranga made from elephant molar (from Sumatra?), I bought it 5 years ago and the materials is still strong, as I said I think that it may not be that old so the organic binder in the tooth is still present and avoids it to be too brittle.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 7th December 2010, 10:43 AM

There is still a lot of material coming out of Sangiran, Jean. Possibly not from the regulated areas, but every time there is heavy rain fossils are uncovered, and when the creeks and rivers running through the area rise, they uncover fossils in the creek banks, which the local people harvest as soon as the water level drops. Its all highly illegal of course, but like most things illegal, its only illegal if you get caught.You've only got to walk around the local markets to see evidence of what is found.

Battara · 7th December 2010, 10:52 PM

So what I am hearing is the use of fossil molar ivory is a recent phenomenon in Indonesia, right?

VANDOO · 8th December 2010, 05:01 AM

THE 3 KERIS PICTURED ARE RECENT BUT I HAVE SEEN A FEW EXAMPLES IN OLD POSTS ON THE FORUM THAT SEEMED TO HAVE MORE AGE. I HAVE SEEN IT USED ON SOME PHILIPPINE WEAPONS AS WELL BUT IT IS MORE RARE. SO I WOULDN'T JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT ALL ARE RECENTLY MADE.
THESE STEGODON FOSSILS WOULD BE AT LEAST 11 THOUSAND YEARS OLD AND MOST LIKELY OLDER AS THE MAMOTH AND MASTADON BECAME EXTINT AROUND THEN.
I CAN'T IDENTIFY THE MATERIAL IN THE FIRST PICTURE BUT THE MATERIAL USED ON THE KERIS AND THE 3 FRAGMENTS APPEAR TO BE FROM THE SPECIES OF STEGODON FOUND IN JAVA. THERE HAS BEEN INTREST IN FOSSIL TEETH SINCE ANCIENT TIMES SO IT IS VERY LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN USED. SUCH TEETH HAVE BEEN REFERRED TO AS DRAGONS TEETH AND MAGICAL POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO THEM AND HAVE BEEN USED IN MEDICINE AND AS TAILSMAN FOR A VERY LONG TIME.
SO USE ON ANCIENT WEAPONS IS A POSSIBILITY WHERE STABLE MATERIAL COULD BE FOUND. I COULD ONLY FIND ONE PICTURE OF A MORO SWORD USING IT AS A POMMEL.
THE PATTERN IN THE STONE IS DETERMINED BY THE DIRECTION IT IS CUT IN. I HAVE A SQUARE BLOCK OF JAVA STEGODON AND THE PATTERN IS DIFFERENT ON ALL 6 SIDES, SO THERE CAN BE QUITE A LOT OF VARIATION EVEN IN ONE TOOTH. THERE ARE MANY OTHER KINDS OF FOSSIL ELEPHANT TEETH AS WELL AS TITANOTHERE AND OTHERS SO THERE ARE A LOT OF VARIATIONS POSSIBLE. BUT FINDING GOOD STABLE MATERIAL IS A PROBLEM. MOST OF THE FOSSIL IVORY CARVED IN BALI INTO PENDANTS ECT. ARE FROM SIBERIA OR ALASKA MOSTLY MAMMOTH TUSK IS USED.

Battara · 8th December 2010, 05:44 AM

Well I agree with you Barry - I have a barong with this molar ivory. However, I don't have any information on this so I thought there would be more written on this use in the keris world since they use it more often.

Battara · 25th October 2014, 09:16 PM

Since I originally started this thread, I found finally found one mention in one source from George Frederick Kunz in his book Ivory and the Elephant in Art, in Archaeology, and in Science, 1916, p348:

“The molar of an elephant has been found in the island of Luzon, Philippines. This was probably brought thither from India. On the island of Mindanao a tooth of Stegodon trigonocephalus mindanaoensis was discovered. This genus stands between the mastodon and the modern elephant, although more nearly resembling the latter. This is the only instance on record of the finding of such remains in the Philippine Islands. The tooth was found in the north- western part of the island, and is at present in the Ethno- logical Museum at Dresden (No. 2679). The discovery was made by Semper, who described it as "a tooth of the war god Tagbusu of the Manobos, only to be worn by a Bagani (a priest or a prince); it was used as a talisman."
The tooth is bound with varicolored strings, so attached that it could be worn suspended.”

If you folks find any other information, please post or let me know.

I will also post this in the general weapons forum.

7th December 2010, 06:59 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE FOSSIL TEETH I SAW BEING USED IN BALI AND ELSEWHERE WERE SAID TO HAVE COME FROM JAVA. IT WAS MORE STABLE THAN TEETH I HAVE SEEN COMMING FROM MANY OTHER LOCATIONS. THE ONE FROM JAVA WAS THE TOOTH OF A STEGODON A TYPE OF MASTODON. MAMMOTH, MASTODON AND EXTINCT ELEPHANT FOSSILS ARE WIDESPREAD I EVEN FIND THEM HERE WHERE I LIVE. THE TUSKS AND TEETH HERE ARE BRITTLE AND NOT SUITABLE FOR MUCH. THE ENAMEL ON THE TEETH COULD BE USED FOR TAILSMAN OR JEWLRY BUT NOT FOR A KERIS HANDLE. PICTURE OF PARTIAL SKULL OF STEGODON TRIGONOCEPHALUS AND 3 PICTURES OF A SINGLE STEGODON TOOTH FROM JAVA MEASURES 10.5 X 5.5 X 3 INCHES. ITS THE KIND I SAW BEING CARVED IN BALI. Attached Images

7th December 2010, 09:45 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I attach pictures of fossil teeth which I got in Sangiran (near Solo) some 15 years ago, they are too small for making a hilt and may not come from a mammoth at all. I think that this site was extensively excavated and is highly controlled so I doubt that fossil teeth are still available from this location and used for making artefacts, but it was probably the case in the past. I attach a picture of a Jogja kris in my collection with the hilt & waranga made from elephant molar (from Sumatra?), I bought it 5 years ago and the materials is still strong, as I said I think that it may not be that old so the organic binder in the tooth is still present and avoids it to be too brittle. Best regards Jean Attached Images

8th December 2010, 05:01 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE 3 KERIS PICTURED ARE RECENT BUT I HAVE SEEN A FEW EXAMPLES IN OLD POSTS ON THE FORUM THAT SEEMED TO HAVE MORE AGE. I HAVE SEEN IT USED ON SOME PHILIPPINE WEAPONS AS WELL BUT IT IS MORE RARE. SO I WOULDN'T JUMP TO THE CONCLUSION THAT ALL ARE RECENTLY MADE. THESE STEGODON FOSSILS WOULD BE AT LEAST 11 THOUSAND YEARS OLD AND MOST LIKELY OLDER AS THE MAMOTH AND MASTADON BECAME EXTINT AROUND THEN. I CAN'T IDENTIFY THE MATERIAL IN THE FIRST PICTURE BUT THE MATERIAL USED ON THE KERIS AND THE 3 FRAGMENTS APPEAR TO BE FROM THE SPECIES OF STEGODON FOUND IN JAVA. THERE HAS BEEN INTREST IN FOSSIL TEETH SINCE ANCIENT TIMES SO IT IS VERY LIKELY TO HAVE BEEN USED. SUCH TEETH HAVE BEEN REFERRED TO AS DRAGONS TEETH AND MAGICAL POWERS ATTRIBUTED TO THEM AND HAVE BEEN USED IN MEDICINE AND AS TAILSMAN FOR A VERY LONG TIME. SO USE ON ANCIENT WEAPONS IS A POSSIBILITY WHERE STABLE MATERIAL COULD BE FOUND. I COULD ONLY FIND ONE PICTURE OF A MORO SWORD USING IT AS A POMMEL. THE PATTERN IN THE STONE IS DETERMINED BY THE DIRECTION IT IS CUT IN. I HAVE A SQUARE BLOCK OF JAVA STEGODON AND THE PATTERN IS DIFFERENT ON ALL 6 SIDES, SO THERE CAN BE QUITE A LOT OF VARIATION EVEN IN ONE TOOTH. THERE ARE MANY OTHER KINDS OF FOSSIL ELEPHANT TEETH AS WELL AS TITANOTHERE AND OTHERS SO THERE ARE A LOT OF VARIATIONS POSSIBLE. BUT FINDING GOOD STABLE MATERIAL IS A PROBLEM. MOST OF THE FOSSIL IVORY CARVED IN BALI INTO PENDANTS ECT. ARE FROM SIBERIA OR ALASKA MOSTLY MAMMOTH TUSK IS USED. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 8th December 2010 at 05:39 AM.

25th October 2014, 09:16 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Since I originally started this thread, I found finally found one mention in one source from George Frederick Kunz in his book Ivory and the Elephant in Art, in Archaeology, and in Science, 1916, p348: “The molar of an elephant has been found in the island of Luzon, Philippines. This was probably brought thither from India. On the island of Mindanao a tooth of Stegodon trigonocephalus mindanaoensis was discovered. This genus stands between the mastodon and the modern elephant, although more nearly resembling the latter. This is the only instance on record of the finding of such remains in the Philippine Islands. The tooth was found in the north- western part of the island, and is at present in the Ethno- logical Museum at Dresden (No. 2679). The discovery was made by Semper, who described it as "a tooth of the war god Tagbusu of the Manobos, only to be worn by a Bagani (a priest or a prince); it was used as a talisman." The tooth is bound with varicolored strings, so attached that it could be worn suspended.” If you folks find any other information, please post or let me know. I will also post this in the general weapons forum. Last edited by Battara; 25th October 2014 at 10:04 PM.

7th December 2010, 10:43 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	There is still a lot of material coming out of Sangiran, Jean. Possibly not from the regulated areas, but every time there is heavy rain fossils are uncovered, and when the creeks and rivers running through the area rise, they uncover fossils in the creek banks, which the local people harvest as soon as the water level drops. Its all highly illegal of course, but like most things illegal, its only illegal if you get caught.You've only got to walk around the local markets to see evidence of what is found.

7th December 2010, 10:52 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	So what I am hearing is the use of fossil molar ivory is a recent phenomenon in Indonesia, right?

8th December 2010, 05:44 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Well I agree with you Barry - I have a barong with this molar ivory. However, I don't have any information on this so I thought there would be more written on this use in the keris world since they use it more often.