Who am I

[Rick]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Sorry guys, but i don't see the controversy. Even with the beak like structure the first pic appears to be obviously Ganesh, ears and all. As Rick has pointed out, he often holds one trunk in his hand as is depicted here clearly. I cannot see this as being anyone else.

Yes , the Elephant is standing in the middle of the room here .
We just have to admit that it is .

[fearn]

Hi Rick and Nechesh,

There's a really fundamental problem: on an elephant, the trunk is the NOSE.

On this figure, there's a perfectly good, human-form nose, right above that beak.

If that's the way you identify elephants, you might identify each kid with a popsicle, or every karaoke singer with a microphone in his mouth, as an elephant. Right? That's the structure we're looking at here. The snakey-looking thing comes out of the mouth, not off the nose.

I can agree that it's a Garuda figure, rather than my earlier guess of Hanuman, because it looks like a human upper face, combined with a bird-beak for a mouth. Also, elephants don't have feathers for "hair" as this figure obviously does.

Another point: that "trunk" has stripes like a snake: possibly a krait or something else.

Fearn

[Henk]

Gentlemen,

This is an elephant, but it isn't Ganesha. Last year I visited a fellow collector who is a member of the studygroup of Tammens. The studygroup still excists and is active. He showed me a balinese keris with the same ukiran figure.
Ganesha I said. Wrong he said. Ganesha holds his trunk in his left hand and this guy holds his trunk in his right hand. He did tell me the name of this guy but unfortunately I forgot it.

Maybe one of the experts can help us out and tell us the name of this guy?

[Rick]

Hi Fearn , respectfully I must disagree with you .
Every one of the depictions illustrated have the nostrils at the base of the trunk . This may be related to how Ganesha got his elephant head .
I have already stated my other observations and opinions so I won't waste bandwidth in restating them .

To each his own .

Henk , I'd love to hear about this other elephant figure you refer to .
Cedric , anymore input from you ?

Anyone else care to chime in here ?


/As Freud said , sometimes a cigar is just a cigar .

< ducks for cover>

[Bill]

I would guess that it is an elephant emerging from a bird. The ears look human, not elephant. Tranformation? What hasn't had comment is the face on the back of the head, a mouse?

[Ian]

Guys:

There are many versions of Ganesha, and some substantial artistic differences between geographic areas of Hindu influence. For example, contemporary representations of Ganesha from Nepal are quite different in appearance from Indian representations. There is a spiritual consistency, however, in the various postures, and to be true to the Ganesha traditions there are some clear guidelines.

To quote from http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa083000a.htm

"Significance of the Ganesha Form

Ganesha's head symbolizes the Atman or the soul, which is the ultimate supreme reality of human existence, and his human body signifies Maya or the earthly existence of human beings. The elephant head denotes wisdom and its trunk represents Om, the sound symbol of cosmic reality. In his upper right hand Ganesha holds a goad, which helps him propel mankind forward on the eternal path and remove obstacles from the way. The noose in Ganesha's left hand is a gentle implement to capture all difficulties.

The broken tusk that Ganesha holds like a pen in his lower right hand is a symbol of sacrifice, which he broke for writing the Mahabharata. The rosary in his other hand suggests that the pursuit of knowledge should be continuous. The laddoo (sweet) he holds in his trunk indicates that one must discover the sweetness of the Atman. His fan-like ears convey that he is all ears to our petition. The snake that runs round his waist represents energy in all forms. And he is humble enough to ride the lowest of creatures, a mouse."

Looking at the original subject of this post, there is little in this figure to suggest Ganesha other than the unusual looking "trunk," which is held in the right hand (never a traditional posture for Ganesha). The anomalies here may be the result of a culture long removed from its traditional roots of Hinduism, or perhaps the depiction of a completely different deity, as has been suggested.

Ian.

Here are two traditional Ganesha forms:

[tuancd]

Hi everybody

Dear Henk
I'll be glad to know of a second elephant headed god. Actually right or left it does not really matters. It shows how the different ways to the aim. The swastikas counter or clock-wise is the Buddhist representation of the same thing.

For the broken tusk, I've been told by the Guimet conservator that one night after a long day Ganesh had eaten so much that he was lost and asked his way to the moon. The moon fool in the sky laugh at him and told him to wait until morning. Furious Ganesh took one of his fang and thrown it at the moon. That's why we have the climbing crescent of moon and since he missed declining one.

I like also the Mahâbhârata related story, thanks Ian.

For the handle, I really think it's Ganesh. But I can't trace any other picture or sculpture of a Ganesh like that. That's why I asked.

Thanks to all and best regards
Cedric

[spiral]

I suppose the other potentialy likely God with a trunk & tusks is of course the Makara!

Spiral..


To quote from..

http://www.khandro.net/mysterious_makaras1.htm

Which has illustrations & pictures.


The Sanskrit word makara can refer to the amphibian animal we know as the crocodile. However, it also designates a mythological water creature that resembles a croc in only one way -- it has a long proboscis [nose-like organ.] It is doubtful that someone would recognize in images and sculptures of makaras any crocodilian he or she had ever seen.

For example, in the temple complex of Khajuraho in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh, the temple-guardian makara sculptures resemble sleek sorts of seals. They are chubby, smooth-coated creatures with short, re-curved trunks.

Now the trunk is the identifying characteristic of the elephant, and as we have seen, elephants are associated with the rain clouds that presage a plentiful harvest. Hence, they are linked with Lakshmi, the Indian goddess of prosperity. This calendar art image shows how the elephant is related to the mythological water creature called makara.



Named "river horse" by the Greeks, the hippopotamus also may be the prototype for the makaras that accompany Ganga, goddess of heavenly sweet waters. Or, if ever there actually existed an animal resembling the makara in the ancient Indian environment, the gentle, vegetarian manatee (Trichechus manatus) might even be a candidate.

In astrology, the makara is often translated Water Horse, and corresponds to the western astrological sign of Capricorn. It is serpentine or seal-like, and its elephantine head is often used as an architectural decoration or as a structural bracket.

In India, Makara-Shankranti occurs at the terminal cusp of Capricorn indicating that the sun is now entering the tenth house of the Zodiac and heading towards the northern hemisphere -- the winter solstice has passed. It is celebrated in the middle of the month of January and is regarded as a kind of New Year. Unfortunately, it is the custom for many Hindu families to sacrifice animals at this time, often one for each member. In the state of Kerala, a holy flame called Makara Jyoti seems to appear in the skies at the prominent temple of Sabari Malai on that day.

Water horse translated into German is wasserpferd, but that term is used for the walrus. The one aspect of that great sea mammal that recalls the makara is its characteristic posture with its head in the air while its lower body is in the water. On the other hand, look at the elephant seal: If there is any "water horse" in nature, this is the candidate that seems to bear the closest resemblance.

Mugging

In Hindi, a crocodile is called magar. We sometimes see this written as "mugger." The Indian salt water crocodile is among the largest of the world's 23 species of crocodilians, a group that includes alligators and gavials. The snout of some gavials (more properly known as gharial, for the ghara or pot at the end of the mature male's snout that may serve as an amplification chamber for sounds emitted during courtship,) is long and very slender, and up-curving. It is amongst the largest of crocodilians, averaging between 12 and 15 feet. Perhaps those are reasons why the makara of art and architecture seems like an aquatic elephant