Fossil Molar Talisman Research Needed

A. G. Maisey · 5th December 2010, 07:47 AM

I don't know of any "research", but I've handled the raw material I know how its found, where its found, how its worked, what its deficiencies are what the price of raw material is, what the cost of working it is, etc, etc, etc.

I also know it is damned unstable and something that you think is a perfect item can develop cracks, chips, splits even when kept in a protected environment.

What do you want to know?

cedric Le Dauphin · 5th December 2010, 01:35 PM

Hi! Everybody,

Dear allan
Not interferring, I'd love to know the regions where theses 'fossils' can be found.
Best regards

Jean · 5th December 2010, 02:25 PM

This subject was raised in another thread and I got some interesting information from my Javanese friend from Yogyakarta who trades this materials and I would like to share it with you in order to stimulate the discussion:
According to him, there are 2 types of fossil elephant/mamoouth molar, namely the hard one and the soft one, and only the soft type can be used for making kris hilts or warangkas. One possible interpretation (uncontrolled opinion only) could be that the hard fossil type is older than the soft one due to mineralization?
Also according to him the materials comes from Sumatra (from fossil or more recently dead elephants?) and since recently also from Russia (Siberia) where a lot of frozen mamooths can be found (not fossil ones since they were perfectly preserved under the ice or frozen ground). The Russian molar materials is worked in Bali especially.
I attach a picture of the raw material, which has a yellowish colour with white and darker stripes, and a sample of a finished Javanese hilt & warangka. In order to enhance the colour contrast, some traders dye the pieces by dipping it into a potassium permanganate solution which has a purple colour. Upon contact with air, the unstable permanganate compound is chemically reduced to manganese oxide which has a brown colour and is stable. I attach a picture of such a dyed piece, so the difference in colour between some pieces would not be due to their age as I wrongly said earlier but to a dying treatment.
I personally wonder whether these pieces are actually fossil ones or not, or may be both?
Best regards
Jean

Alam Shah · 5th December 2010, 03:04 PM

Hi Jean,
Thanks for the info.. your source, is also a friend..

Hi Alan,
I would like to know how we can tell the difference between fossil molars and non-fossil molars? How did molars (geraham) got into use as hilts and what is the talismanic beliefs or properties?

I've seen it used as hilts on keris, kris (kalis), badik.. etc.. but so far, none that pre-date 19thC, imho..

Battara · 5th December 2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

How did molars (geraham) got into use as hilts and what is the talismanic beliefs or properties?

I've seen it used as hilts on keris, kris (kalis), badik.. etc.. but so far, none that pre-date 19thC, imho..

This is also what I want to know. Is there any research on this or just folklore. I understood that among it's talismanic properties is protection against bullets and the evil eye. However, I have not seen any documentation.

A. G. Maisey · 5th December 2010, 09:24 PM

Yes, there is a lot of material coming into Bali from other countries, most especially from Canada.

The mammoth ivory from there has been used by custom knife makers for many years before it was exported into Bali. It is horribly unstable stuff, and the custom knife industry uses some sort of resin infusion process that turns it into good usable material. As both the ivory and the molars are used raw in Bali it is beautiful in the gallery, will pass customs, and two years down the track in a display cabinet will very probably develop heavy cracking. I say "very probably" because I cannot guarantee it will happen with every piece, but it has happened with every piece that I have.

As to the Indonesian raw material, I have handled pieces that came from the Sangiran fossil beds, and I have seen pieces sold that came from Sumatera. I have seen a lot of newly carved hilts that have come from Sumatra. They are horribly expensive. My guess is that they are carved with rotary drills like old time dentists used. This type of technology was used in Surabaya 30 years ago, notably by one of the all-time big-deal purveyors of keris who sold principally into the Jakarta market and in Europe.

I've also seen a lot of hilts and wrongkos that were produced by Jogja craftsmen, but I have not seen any keris fittings from this material produced by Solo craftsmen.

Probably the first recent productions using geraham I saw in about 1988. In the 20 years prior to that I did not see any geraham hilts or wrongkos for sale in Central Jawa.

Prior to the time when geraham began to appear in the Central Jawa markets I had seen one Balinese wrongko that I believed to be genuinely old, and perhaps three or four hilts:- one in an old Australian collection, one in the Musium Radyo Pustoko in Solo, and I've added the other one or two for any I might have forgotten. That during the period from about 1954 to about 1988.

I know of no rule of thumb that can be used to differentiate between fossil molar and new molar. I saw a couple of new molars that had come from an elephant that had died about 6 months previous in Solo and been buried , I think, at Jurug. To me it looked exactly the same as the fossilised stuff. Once the material has been turned into a finished article I would not have the faintest idea how to differentiate, but I'm sure the carvers could, simply by the way in which it works.

It is important to note that in Central Jawa and especially in Solo, if you ask where fossils offered for sale come from, they will almost invariably come from somewhere outside Jawa. This is because the authorities have cracked down hard to even the micro level on the sale of fossils illegally taken from the Sangiran fossil beds. If you believe everything you're told, nothing comes from Sangiran any longer.

I do not know how, when, where nor why geraham, either fresh or fossil was first used as a material for keris. Based on the couple of genuinely old pieces I've seen, my guess is pre-WWII, and not in Jawa.

I have never heard any mention of talismanic properties associated with geraham, except that it is favoured by Dewi Duit, and because of this favour, is very good for trade.

In respect of talismanic qualities.

In my experience, if you ask for a talismanic quality for something, you will be provided with one.

In Indonesia, and most especially in Jawa, if you are a paying customer, or somebody with some level of authority, particularly if you're a bule or somebody else from outside, and you ask a question that seeks after knowledge, you'll nearly always get an answer. Whether that answer is correct or not is another question.

cedric Le Dauphin · 6th December 2010, 10:10 PM

Dear Alan,
Thanks for all these info.
Any info on sites of archeological sites of elephant remains or mammouth remains within our realm?

5th December 2010, 02:25 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	This subject was raised in another thread and I got some interesting information from my Javanese friend from Yogyakarta who trades this materials and I would like to share it with you in order to stimulate the discussion: According to him, there are 2 types of fossil elephant/mamoouth molar, namely the hard one and the soft one, and only the soft type can be used for making kris hilts or warangkas. One possible interpretation (uncontrolled opinion only) could be that the hard fossil type is older than the soft one due to mineralization? Also according to him the materials comes from Sumatra (from fossil or more recently dead elephants?) and since recently also from Russia (Siberia) where a lot of frozen mamooths can be found (not fossil ones since they were perfectly preserved under the ice or frozen ground). The Russian molar materials is worked in Bali especially. I attach a picture of the raw material, which has a yellowish colour with white and darker stripes, and a sample of a finished Javanese hilt & warangka. In order to enhance the colour contrast, some traders dye the pieces by dipping it into a potassium permanganate solution which has a purple colour. Upon contact with air, the unstable permanganate compound is chemically reduced to manganese oxide which has a brown colour and is stable. I attach a picture of such a dyed piece, so the difference in colour between some pieces would not be due to their age as I wrongly said earlier but to a dying treatment. I personally wonder whether these pieces are actually fossil ones or not, or may be both? Best regards Jean Attached Images

5th December 2010, 07:47 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	I don't know of any "research", but I've handled the raw material I know how its found, where its found, how its worked, what its deficiencies are what the price of raw material is, what the cost of working it is, etc, etc, etc. I also know it is damned unstable and something that you think is a perfect item can develop cracks, chips, splits even when kept in a protected environment. What do you want to know?

5th December 2010, 01:35 PM	#2
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	Hi! Everybody, Dear allan Not interferring, I'd love to know the regions where theses 'fossils' can be found. Best regards

5th December 2010, 03:04 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Hi Jean, Thanks for the info.. your source, is also a friend.. Hi Alan, I would like to know how we can tell the difference between fossil molars and non-fossil molars? How did molars (geraham) got into use as hilts and what is the talismanic beliefs or properties? I've seen it used as hilts on keris, kris (kalis), badik.. etc.. but so far, none that pre-date 19thC, imho..

5th December 2010, 09:24 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes, there is a lot of material coming into Bali from other countries, most especially from Canada. The mammoth ivory from there has been used by custom knife makers for many years before it was exported into Bali. It is horribly unstable stuff, and the custom knife industry uses some sort of resin infusion process that turns it into good usable material. As both the ivory and the molars are used raw in Bali it is beautiful in the gallery, will pass customs, and two years down the track in a display cabinet will very probably develop heavy cracking. I say "very probably" because I cannot guarantee it will happen with every piece, but it has happened with every piece that I have. As to the Indonesian raw material, I have handled pieces that came from the Sangiran fossil beds, and I have seen pieces sold that came from Sumatera. I have seen a lot of newly carved hilts that have come from Sumatra. They are horribly expensive. My guess is that they are carved with rotary drills like old time dentists used. This type of technology was used in Surabaya 30 years ago, notably by one of the all-time big-deal purveyors of keris who sold principally into the Jakarta market and in Europe. I've also seen a lot of hilts and wrongkos that were produced by Jogja craftsmen, but I have not seen any keris fittings from this material produced by Solo craftsmen. Probably the first recent productions using geraham I saw in about 1988. In the 20 years prior to that I did not see any geraham hilts or wrongkos for sale in Central Jawa. Prior to the time when geraham began to appear in the Central Jawa markets I had seen one Balinese wrongko that I believed to be genuinely old, and perhaps three or four hilts:- one in an old Australian collection, one in the Musium Radyo Pustoko in Solo, and I've added the other one or two for any I might have forgotten. That during the period from about 1954 to about 1988. I know of no rule of thumb that can be used to differentiate between fossil molar and new molar. I saw a couple of new molars that had come from an elephant that had died about 6 months previous in Solo and been buried , I think, at Jurug. To me it looked exactly the same as the fossilised stuff. Once the material has been turned into a finished article I would not have the faintest idea how to differentiate, but I'm sure the carvers could, simply by the way in which it works. It is important to note that in Central Jawa and especially in Solo, if you ask where fossils offered for sale come from, they will almost invariably come from somewhere outside Jawa. This is because the authorities have cracked down hard to even the micro level on the sale of fossils illegally taken from the Sangiran fossil beds. If you believe everything you're told, nothing comes from Sangiran any longer. I do not know how, when, where nor why geraham, either fresh or fossil was first used as a material for keris. Based on the couple of genuinely old pieces I've seen, my guess is pre-WWII, and not in Jawa. I have never heard any mention of talismanic properties associated with geraham, except that it is favoured by Dewi Duit, and because of this favour, is very good for trade. In respect of talismanic qualities. In my experience, if you ask for a talismanic quality for something, you will be provided with one. In Indonesia, and most especially in Jawa, if you are a paying customer, or somebody with some level of authority, particularly if you're a bule or somebody else from outside, and you ask a question that seeks after knowledge, you'll nearly always get an answer. Whether that answer is correct or not is another question.

6th December 2010, 10:10 PM	#7
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	Dear Alan, Thanks for all these info. Any info on sites of archeological sites of elephant remains or mammouth remains within our realm?