Who am I

Rick · 22nd June 2005, 02:26 PM

Hi Cedric , I think what we're looking at here are two representations (with artistic license) or interpretations of Lord Ganesha . I've got to believe that if it were Garuda eating a snake it would be more obvious as I stated before . The cup at the end of the trunk in the first example is too elephant-like to represent even a part of a snake . One other point , Lord Ganesha is depicted with nostrils above his trunk in many Balinese carvings . I think that this feature tends to impart a beak like look to the face , also the horizontal tusks just don't fit with a Garuda interpretation IMO .

When the Naga is depicted it is usually more obvious :

nechesh · 22nd June 2005, 02:58 PM

Sorry guys, but i don't see the controversy. Even with the beak like structure the first pic appears to be obviously Ganesh, ears and all. As Rick has pointed out, he often holds one trunk in his hand as is depicted here clearly. I cannot see this as being anyone else.

Rick · 22nd June 2005, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nechesh

Sorry guys, but i don't see the controversy. Even with the beak like structure the first pic appears to be obviously Ganesh, ears and all. As Rick has pointed out, he often holds one trunk in his hand as is depicted here clearly. I cannot see this as being anyone else.

Yes , the Elephant is standing in the middle of the room here .
We just have to admit that it is .

fearn · 22nd June 2005, 04:59 PM

Hi Rick and Nechesh,

There's a really fundamental problem: on an elephant, the trunk is the NOSE.

On this figure, there's a perfectly good, human-form nose, right above that beak.

If that's the way you identify elephants, you might identify each kid with a popsicle, or every karaoke singer with a microphone in his mouth, as an elephant. Right? That's the structure we're looking at here. The snakey-looking thing comes out of the mouth, not off the nose.

I can agree that it's a Garuda figure, rather than my earlier guess of Hanuman, because it looks like a human upper face, combined with a bird-beak for a mouth. Also, elephants don't have feathers for "hair" as this figure obviously does.

Another point: that "trunk" has stripes like a snake: possibly a krait or something else.

Fearn

Henk · 22nd June 2005, 07:13 PM

Gentlemen,

This is an elephant, but it isn't Ganesha. Last year I visited a fellow collector who is a member of the studygroup of Tammens. The studygroup still excists and is active. He showed me a balinese keris with the same ukiran figure.
Ganesha I said. Wrong he said. Ganesha holds his trunk in his left hand and this guy holds his trunk in his right hand. He did tell me the name of this guy but unfortunately I forgot it.

Maybe one of the experts can help us out and tell us the name of this guy?

Rick · 22nd June 2005, 08:57 PM

Hi Fearn , respectfully I must disagree with you .

Every one of the depictions illustrated have the nostrils at the base of the trunk . This may be related to how Ganesha got his elephant head .
I have already stated my other observations and opinions so I won't waste bandwidth in restating them .

To each his own .

Henk , I'd love to hear about this other elephant figure you refer to .
Cedric , anymore input from you ?

Anyone else care to chime in here ?

/As Freud said , sometimes a cigar is just a cigar .

< ducks for cover>

Bill · 22nd June 2005, 09:36 PM

I would guess that it is an elephant emerging from a bird. The ears look human, not elephant. Tranformation? What hasn't had comment is the face on the back of the head, a mouse?

Ian · 22nd June 2005, 09:47 PM

Guys:

There are many versions of Ganesha, and some substantial artistic differences between geographic areas of Hindu influence. For example, contemporary representations of Ganesha from Nepal are quite different in appearance from Indian representations. There is a spiritual consistency, however, in the various postures, and to be true to the Ganesha traditions there are some clear guidelines.

To quote from http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa083000a.htm

"Significance of the Ganesha Form

Ganesha's head symbolizes the Atman or the soul, which is the ultimate supreme reality of human existence, and his human body signifies Maya or the earthly existence of human beings. The elephant head denotes wisdom and its trunk represents Om, the sound symbol of cosmic reality. In his upper right hand Ganesha holds a goad, which helps him propel mankind forward on the eternal path and remove obstacles from the way. The noose in Ganesha's left hand is a gentle implement to capture all difficulties.

The broken tusk that Ganesha holds like a pen in his lower right hand is a symbol of sacrifice, which he broke for writing the Mahabharata. The rosary in his other hand suggests that the pursuit of knowledge should be continuous. The laddoo (sweet) he holds in his trunk indicates that one must discover the sweetness of the Atman. His fan-like ears convey that he is all ears to our petition. The snake that runs round his waist represents energy in all forms. And he is humble enough to ride the lowest of creatures, a mouse."

Looking at the original subject of this post, there is little in this figure to suggest Ganesha other than the unusual looking "trunk," which is held in the right hand (never a traditional posture for Ganesha). The anomalies here may be the result of a culture long removed from its traditional roots of Hinduism, or perhaps the depiction of a completely different deity, as has been suggested.

Ian.

Here are two traditional Ganesha forms:

22nd June 2005, 02:26 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Hi Cedric , I think what we're looking at here are two representations (with artistic license) or interpretations of Lord Ganesha . I've got to believe that if it were Garuda eating a snake it would be more obvious as I stated before . The cup at the end of the trunk in the first example is too elephant-like to represent even a part of a snake . One other point , Lord Ganesha is depicted with nostrils above his trunk in many Balinese carvings . I think that this feature tends to impart a beak like look to the face , also the horizontal tusks just don't fit with a Garuda interpretation IMO . When the Naga is depicted it is usually more obvious : Attached Images Last edited by Rick; 22nd June 2005 at 02:37 PM.

22nd June 2005, 09:47 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,395	Guys: There are many versions of Ganesha, and some substantial artistic differences between geographic areas of Hindu influence. For example, contemporary representations of Ganesha from Nepal are quite different in appearance from Indian representations. There is a spiritual consistency, however, in the various postures, and to be true to the Ganesha traditions there are some clear guidelines. To quote from http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/aa083000a.htm "Significance of the Ganesha Form Ganesha's head symbolizes the Atman or the soul, which is the ultimate supreme reality of human existence, and his human body signifies Maya or the earthly existence of human beings. The elephant head denotes wisdom and its trunk represents Om, the sound symbol of cosmic reality. In his upper right hand Ganesha holds a goad, which helps him propel mankind forward on the eternal path and remove obstacles from the way. The noose in Ganesha's left hand is a gentle implement to capture all difficulties. The broken tusk that Ganesha holds like a pen in his lower right hand is a symbol of sacrifice, which he broke for writing the Mahabharata. The rosary in his other hand suggests that the pursuit of knowledge should be continuous. The laddoo (sweet) he holds in his trunk indicates that one must discover the sweetness of the Atman. His fan-like ears convey that he is all ears to our petition. The snake that runs round his waist represents energy in all forms. And he is humble enough to ride the lowest of creatures, a mouse." Looking at the original subject of this post, there is little in this figure to suggest Ganesha other than the unusual looking "trunk," which is held in the right hand (never a traditional posture for Ganesha). The anomalies here may be the result of a culture long removed from its traditional roots of Hinduism, or perhaps the depiction of a completely different deity, as has been suggested. Ian. Here are two traditional Ganesha forms: Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 22nd June 2005 at 10:07 PM.

22nd June 2005, 02:58 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry guys, but i don't see the controversy. Even with the beak like structure the first pic appears to be obviously Ganesh, ears and all. As Rick has pointed out, he often holds one trunk in his hand as is depicted here clearly. I cannot see this as being anyone else.

22nd June 2005, 04:59 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Rick and Nechesh, There's a really fundamental problem: on an elephant, the trunk is the NOSE. On this figure, there's a perfectly good, human-form nose, right above that beak. If that's the way you identify elephants, you might identify each kid with a popsicle, or every karaoke singer with a microphone in his mouth, as an elephant. Right? That's the structure we're looking at here. The snakey-looking thing comes out of the mouth, not off the nose. I can agree that it's a Garuda figure, rather than my earlier guess of Hanuman, because it looks like a human upper face, combined with a bird-beak for a mouth. Also, elephants don't have feathers for "hair" as this figure obviously does. Another point: that "trunk" has stripes like a snake: possibly a krait or something else. Fearn

22nd June 2005, 07:13 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Gentlemen, This is an elephant, but it isn't Ganesha. Last year I visited a fellow collector who is a member of the studygroup of Tammens. The studygroup still excists and is active. He showed me a balinese keris with the same ukiran figure. Ganesha I said. Wrong he said. Ganesha holds his trunk in his left hand and this guy holds his trunk in his right hand. He did tell me the name of this guy but unfortunately I forgot it. Maybe one of the experts can help us out and tell us the name of this guy?

22nd June 2005, 08:57 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Hi Fearn , respectfully I must disagree with you . Every one of the depictions illustrated have the nostrils at the base of the trunk . This may be related to how Ganesha got his elephant head . I have already stated my other observations and opinions so I won't waste bandwidth in restating them . To each his own . Henk , I'd love to hear about this other elephant figure you refer to . Cedric , anymore input from you ? Anyone else care to chime in here ? /As Freud said , sometimes a cigar is just a cigar . < ducks for cover>

22nd June 2005, 09:36 PM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I would guess that it is an elephant emerging from a bird. The ears look human, not elephant. Tranformation? What hasn't had comment is the face on the back of the head, a mouse?