Help with (Moro Kris?)

David · 28th November 2010, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

@ Battara: please enlighten me on how you identify the hilt wrapping as later and not original to this please? I might want to re-wrap a kris hilt in the near future and thought that I like how it is done on this piece but your comment disturb me somehow. Probably not traditional design?

I would be interested in knwing this as well José.
While this might very well not be the "original" wrap for this hilt (or even the original hilt for that matter) it looks to my eyes to be an indigenous job that has some age so i wouldn't change it at all. If it was a non traditional job done poorly by a Western collector i would change it, but i don't think that is the case here.

Sajen · 28th November 2010, 04:13 PM

Welcome to the forum Yanni,

agree with the others that this is a very nice kris. A careful restoration would be nice and I think that Jose can help you by this.

But I have the same question as Tunggulametung and David: Why do you think Jose that this isn't the original wrapping of the hilt? It seems to have a good age and patination.

Or do you think that it isn't the original hilt since the blade seems to be a datu chieftain blade and have had by time a other hilt?

Regards,

Detlef

t_c · 28th November 2010, 05:16 PM

Nice Kris Yanni.
I think I understand Battara's comment. IMHO this looks like a "field repair": "I don't have enough material or time to dress the handle properly, so I use what little I have." I think it's a nicely done older job, but I would image with all the work that went into the blade, the handle dress would be somewhat more lavish. The finishing touches of the handle don't match the craftsmanship of the blade.

Battara · 28th November 2010, 07:06 PM

I think t_c hit it on the head - old field repair. There is another rattan wrapping underneath and it is done in a different style of wrap than that above it.

It may also have had some pommel on top, although I don't think it was a kakatua pommel but something else, perhaps in silver and MOP that is often seen in these types of hilts. In fact, often there were strips of metal along the sides of this type of hilt as well. I would not be surprised if there were 2 that are covered in rattan at present.

And yes, everything on this, except the hilt, says datu class piece. Even on the scabbard there is evidence of metal bands that were once there.

Yanni · 29th November 2010, 02:45 AM

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your replies.
I do wish to restore this piece and to keep in "spirit" with the creators.

Mr. tunggulametung,
I am leaning towards your suggestion of using cane binding for the sheath.
Perhaps Tung Oil for the finish?

As for the hilt / pommel issue...
Mr. Battara,
You are correct in that there are two thin (brass?) bands that are wrapped around the silver stirrups and are extending up the sides of the hilt.
They are broken off at the top and they appear that they were somehow attached to and were holding down the pommel.
I have attached two other pictures of the hilt and the cane wrapping.
From that angle you can see the remnants of those two metal strips.
If you look closer at the cane bindings, you can see that there is actually only one layer covering the wooden hilt. The "inner" layer is inter woven with the "outer" layer, and both are held together by a single strand of cane that is inter-woven between both layers.
It is really neat the way it was done.

As Mr. T_C stated, and I agree, "with all the work that went into the blade, the handle dress would be somewhat more lavish. The finishing touches of the handle don't match the craftsmanship of the blade."

What do you members imagine for this blade as a manner of dress for the hilt?
Would perhaps a one piece, minimally carved mahogany, with silver wire highlights? I would like to keep the same simple utilitarian profile.
Would something like this be true to the tribal region?

All opinions and recommendations will be valued and considered.

There is a story that goes with this piece, as to how I came to be in possession of it.
Around 2001 I went to a local flea market and I happened to look in to a bucket of old rusty tools and there it was. Laying in the bucket hilt down, with two pipe wrenches on top and under an assortment of screwdrivers, chisels, 2 hammers and a bent machete. The sheath was taped together with rotted duct tape and separate from the kris. The blade and hilt was covered with layers of dried mud and grime.
I asked the old lady selling it for some information.
She said that her husband brought it back from the war and he told her that it was old. It was in the garage for years. I think I paid $25.00 or $30.00 for it.
I honestly believed that I would find a rusty pile of junk under all of that muck, but the more I cleaned the bigger the smile on my face got.
There is still a thin layer of black oxidation on it, and a thin film of gun oil.
There are also faint hints of damascene shapes and lines just aching to get out.

You guys are great!

Thank you much,

Yanni

David · 29th November 2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanni

As Mr. T_C stated, and I agree, "with all the work that went into the blade, the handle dress would be somewhat more lavish. The finishing touches of the handle don't match the craftsmanship of the blade."

What do you members imagine for this blade as a manner of dress for the hilt?
Would perhaps a one piece, minimally carved mahogany, with silver wire highlights? I would like to keep the same simple utilitarian profile.
Would something like this be true to the tribal region?

All opinions and recommendations will be valued and considered.

My recommendation would be not to change the hilt dress at all. Whether this once had more elaborate dress or not is not the issue for me. If you choose to change this and make it more elaborate to match the work of the blade then you will be firstly, only guessing at what you think it should be judging from a place outside the original culture, and secondly, removing a perfectly authentic wrap done by the one-time original indigenous owner that is in good condition and should probably be preserved, not replaced. This hilt is fair more valuable to me "as is" from my personal collecting POV than any more "correct" restoration you might do as a collector. I cannot see the advantage to removing part of the history of this kris in order to present a more "perfect" envisioning of how we as collectors feel it might have once looked. There is a time for restoration and a time for preservation.

Sajen · 29th November 2010, 07:47 PM

I am in agreement with David about the hilt. It isn't apparently the hilt of the first issue of the blade but a piece of the history of this kris so when it would be mine I don't would change something.... this hilt will never have had silver bands in my humble opinion so I don't would touch it.
Since the blade will have a lamination like you told us I would sand it with very fine wet abrasive paper and would etch it.
A other thing is the missing silver-inlays, I think to restore this will be a good thing.

About the sheath: it would look nice with silver bands again since they have been there like it is still to seen. A care with wood oil or antique wax and a closing polish of the wooden part will bring out a good looking sheath.

But this is only my humble opinion, others will think different.

Regards,

Detlef

Rick · 29th November 2010, 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

My recommendation would be not to change the hilt dress at all. Whether this once had more elaborate dress or not is not the issue for me. If you choose to change this and make it more elaborate to match the work of the blade then you will be firstly, only guessing at what you think it should be judging from a place outside the original culture, and secondly, removing a perfectly authentic wrap done by the one-time original indigenous owner that is in good condition and should probably be preserved, not replaced. This hilt is fair more valuable to me "as is" from my personal collecting POV than any more "correct" restoration you might do as a collector. I cannot see the advantage to removing part of the history of this kris in order to present a more "perfect" envisioning of how we as collectors feel it might have once looked. There is a time for restoration and a time for preservation.

Absolutely !
I agree totally with David about this piece .

Let me put it this way; if you restore it you destroy its history and real worth.

I can't urge you strongly enough to leave it intact .

tunggulametung · 29th November 2010, 08:50 AM

Thanks Battara. I thought earlier that you are mentioning about the whole wrap which I can't understand, and 'field repair' sounds like a good guess as well.
Anyhow, pardon me for I have different opinion regarding the layers. I still in the impression that both layers were done much in the same time firstly because it will be difficult to add the second layer without firstly loosen the first layer-you know how tight these are. Then the different tone might be due to the 'second layer' exposed more to ones palm hence more patina. The 'unique' wrap on this piece might have something to do with baca-baca reinforcement, but could be a personal preference, something like 'I found it tighter this way', or 'I want to look different'. Of course I could be wrong on this, nothing more than just personal opinion. Thanks.

29th November 2010, 02:45 AM	#5
Yanni Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 4	Gentlemen, Thank you for your replies. I do wish to restore this piece and to keep in "spirit" with the creators. Mr. tunggulametung, I am leaning towards your suggestion of using cane binding for the sheath. Perhaps Tung Oil for the finish? As for the hilt / pommel issue... Mr. Battara, You are correct in that there are two thin (brass?) bands that are wrapped around the silver stirrups and are extending up the sides of the hilt. They are broken off at the top and they appear that they were somehow attached to and were holding down the pommel. I have attached two other pictures of the hilt and the cane wrapping. From that angle you can see the remnants of those two metal strips. If you look closer at the cane bindings, you can see that there is actually only one layer covering the wooden hilt. The "inner" layer is inter woven with the "outer" layer, and both are held together by a single strand of cane that is inter-woven between both layers. It is really neat the way it was done. As Mr. T_C stated, and I agree, "with all the work that went into the blade, the handle dress would be somewhat more lavish. The finishing touches of the handle don't match the craftsmanship of the blade." What do you members imagine for this blade as a manner of dress for the hilt? Would perhaps a one piece, minimally carved mahogany, with silver wire highlights? I would like to keep the same simple utilitarian profile. Would something like this be true to the tribal region? All opinions and recommendations will be valued and considered. There is a story that goes with this piece, as to how I came to be in possession of it. Around 2001 I went to a local flea market and I happened to look in to a bucket of old rusty tools and there it was. Laying in the bucket hilt down, with two pipe wrenches on top and under an assortment of screwdrivers, chisels, 2 hammers and a bent machete. The sheath was taped together with rotted duct tape and separate from the kris. The blade and hilt was covered with layers of dried mud and grime. I asked the old lady selling it for some information. She said that her husband brought it back from the war and he told her that it was old. It was in the garage for years. I think I paid $25.00 or $30.00 for it. I honestly believed that I would find a rusty pile of junk under all of that muck, but the more I cleaned the bigger the smile on my face got. There is still a thin layer of black oxidation on it, and a thin film of gun oil. There are also faint hints of damascene shapes and lines just aching to get out. You guys are great! Thank you much, Yanni Attached Images

29th November 2010, 07:47 PM	#7
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	I am in agreement with David about the hilt. It isn't apparently the hilt of the first issue of the blade but a piece of the history of this kris so when it would be mine I don't would change something.... this hilt will never have had silver bands in my humble opinion so I don't would touch it. Since the blade will have a lamination like you told us I would sand it with very fine wet abrasive paper and would etch it. A other thing is the missing silver-inlays, I think to restore this will be a good thing. About the sheath: it would look nice with silver bands again since they have been there like it is still to seen. A care with wood oil or antique wax and a closing polish of the wooden part will bring out a good looking sheath. But this is only my humble opinion, others will think different. Regards, Detlef Last edited by Sajen; 29th November 2010 at 10:52 PM.

28th November 2010, 04:13 PM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	Welcome to the forum Yanni, agree with the others that this is a very nice kris. A careful restoration would be nice and I think that Jose can help you by this. But I have the same question as Tunggulametung and David: Why do you think Jose that this isn't the original wrapping of the hilt? It seems to have a good age and patination. Or do you think that it isn't the original hilt since the blade seems to be a datu chieftain blade and have had by time a other hilt? Regards, Detlef

28th November 2010, 05:16 PM	#3
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	Nice Kris Yanni. I think I understand Battara's comment. IMHO this looks like a "field repair": "I don't have enough material or time to dress the handle properly, so I use what little I have." I think it's a nicely done older job, but I would image with all the work that went into the blade, the handle dress would be somewhat more lavish. The finishing touches of the handle don't match the craftsmanship of the blade.

28th November 2010, 07:06 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	I think t_c hit it on the head - old field repair. There is another rattan wrapping underneath and it is done in a different style of wrap than that above it. It may also have had some pommel on top, although I don't think it was a kakatua pommel but something else, perhaps in silver and MOP that is often seen in these types of hilts. In fact, often there were strips of metal along the sides of this type of hilt as well. I would not be surprised if there were 2 that are covered in rattan at present. And yes, everything on this, except the hilt, says datu class piece. Even on the scabbard there is evidence of metal bands that were once there.

29th November 2010, 08:50 AM	#9
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Thanks Battara. I thought earlier that you are mentioning about the whole wrap which I can't understand, and 'field repair' sounds like a good guess as well. Anyhow, pardon me for I have different opinion regarding the layers. I still in the impression that both layers were done much in the same time firstly because it will be difficult to add the second layer without firstly loosen the first layer-you know how tight these are. Then the different tone might be due to the 'second layer' exposed more to ones palm hence more patina. The 'unique' wrap on this piece might have something to do with baca-baca reinforcement, but could be a personal preference, something like 'I found it tighter this way', or 'I want to look different'. Of course I could be wrong on this, nothing more than just personal opinion. Thanks.