Tatar saber for discussion

Jeff D · 21st June 2005, 04:37 PM

While we are on this topic, are there any good publications on the history of the Tatars post Jochi? or for that matter the Lithuanian Tatars?

Jeff

Battara · 21st June 2005, 05:55 PM

Ok...now I'm getting interested in Tatar swords (not just the sauce

). One more area to collect....*sigh*

Rivkin · 17th July 2006, 05:27 PM

Tamga looks like that of Kanly tribe, but there are so many families in this tribe, or Zhapas clan of Bauly tribe (second picture). I think it is the second one, quite a distinctive tamga. Rotation of the symbol relative to the blade's surface is irrelevant.

On the other hand, Kanly is a much more prominent tribe when it comes to europeans tatars, Osman family belonged to kanly (?). On the other hand Bauly where related to parts of Nogai horde, so they were periodicly appearing around Balkans.

ham · 17th July 2006, 05:51 PM

Ariel,

The sword you mentioned on eBay is a pastiche. The hilt is modern, the blade old. The tamga shown on it was copied out of a book.
Hard enough to learn about these things from originals without being confounded by copies, I say. The seller offered it in all good faith, was emailed when it was recognized as a copy and to his credit has not offered it at auction again.

Ham

ariel · 22nd June 2005, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

While we are on this topic, are there any good publications on the history of the Tatars post Jochi? or for that matter the Lithuanian Tatars?

Jeff

"Bron i uzbrojenie Tatarow"
Jacek Gutowski, Warszawa 1997
("Arms and armor of Tatars")
In Polish and English : even/odd pages.
Wonderful book, full of history and color pics.

Jeff D · 22nd June 2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

"Bron i uzbrojenie Tatarow"
Jacek Gutowski, Warszawa 1997
("Arms and armor of Tatars")
In Polish and English : even/odd pages.
Wonderful book, full of history and color pics.

Thank you Ariel,

Gutowski's book is indeed excellent. It does give a nice outline on the Tatar history, however I wonder if there is any publications with a little more detail.

Thanks again
Jeff

Rivkin · 22nd June 2005, 06:44 PM

1. Thank you Jim for your kind words, but my contribution was rather insignificant.

2. When it comes to tatar history, while I'm pretty sure there should be some (probably polish ?) books on lithuanian and polish tatars, the whole topic is very poorly researched. The reasons in my opinion being current poverty of tatars, endless inter-tribal warfare that in the past have led to the destruction of major centers of tatar civilization, preserverance of nomadic lifestyle (extremely complicating the efforts of archeology), relative isolation from other centers of civilization, replacement of yasa by islam (in my opinion have lead to acceptance of arab/mamluk point of view on mongol/tatar history).

A good example - why there are so many hexagrams on tatar coats of arms ? The obvious answer is an islamic one - it's a seal of Solomon. Unfortunately it creates more questions than answers:

While another extremely popular symbol is an eight point star (octagramm) ? It has no specific symbolism in Islam. Why hexagrams very often appear multiple times - 3 hexgrams in Bucharin's symbolics, 4+1 in Usupov's ? Why this symbol sometimes predates what we consider an islamic period in turkish history, if not islam itself ? Sometimes it's been explained as a jewish symbol, but it does not remove the main problem, which is that besides speculations we know very little.

erlikhan · 22nd June 2005, 10:29 PM

Rivkin, as far as i know,tamgas are primarily to show ownership of a land, building, cattles,sheep, horses anything. was used to understand to whom or which tribe anything belonged in nomadic life's enormous distances and continuously changing settlement locations . tamga - damga means "stamp" in Turkish and first purpose was to sign animals with hot iron i am sure. tamgas should be extremely important to prevent any mistakes, even potential wars. started in middle Ajian steppes and carried to everywhere Turks settled. became an identity symbol for people as well in time, and every tribe, every band, any people had own tamgas. (especially among Tatars, who continued nomadic and semi nomadic life longer than Turkey). Below is the flag of Crimean Tatars with their tamga, used when they were independent, and later autonomyous under Russian rule till 1944,the date they were expelled to other regions). Ottomans were from "Kayi" band of "Oguz" tribe, and they used the Kayi tamga as a military sign widely struck on most arms and armors officialy ordered and manufactured for the state arsenal in Istanbul. I cant find a picture of it at the moment but i think is already well known among Ottoman arms collectioners.
I know northern coasts of Black Sea down to somewhere like south Romania was Tatar land, and in 18-19th centuries conquered by Russians, and just to northwest of Tatars,today's Ukraine and Belarus was Poland at that time. Lvov is in that region,ok. But I didnt know about a large Tatar population in Poland. Were they same with Crimean ones? Or were they to north, and Christians like Lithuanian Tatars? Were they loyal to Poland or what? In fact I am not even sure about Lithuania Tatars too, if they were Moslem or Christian. If Poland had some Tatar population and there are still samples of their sabers, today's south Ukraine, Moldova and Russia ,once densely crowdedly Tatar established regions with strong Tatar armies, should not have much more samples? Why doesnt any come from there, unlike raining Kindjals,shashkas etc.? Any ideas? Would one be able to find any if travels to Crimea and Ukraine?I would desire to have one or more from those
regards

wolviex · 22nd June 2005, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by erlikhan

I know northern coasts of Black Sea down to somewhere like south Romania was Tatar land, and in 18-19th centuries conquered by Russians, and just to northwest of Tatars,today's Ukraine and Belarus was Poland at that time. Lvov is in that region,ok. But I didnt know about a large Tatar population in Poland. Were they same with Crimean ones? Or were they to north, and Christians like Lithuanian Tatars? Were they loyal to Poland or what? In fact I am not even sure about Lithuania Tatars too, if they were Moslem or Christian. If Poland had some Tatar population and there are still samples of their sabers, today's south Ukraine, Moldova and Russia ,once densely crowdedly Tatar established regions with strong Tatar armies, should not have much more samples? Why doesnt any come from there, unlike raining Kindjals,shashkas etc.? Any ideas? Would one be able to find any if travels to Crimea and Ukraine?I would desire to have one or more from those
regards

To be short, I checked out Wikipedia for you, and I'll bring you some basic informations:

Lithuanian and Polish Tatars are generally the same. The latter name was spread after the 1st WW, when Lithuania and Poland became independent, separately countries. Polish Tatars (I will use nowaday term) originate from the Golden Horde and from Crimea. These were political refugees from out there, which settled in Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 14th century. They were accepted by the state and become obliged for military service. Soon they were ennobled, but they have stayed with their religion (Islam), culture and traditions. In 16th and 17th centuries Tatars were mostly polonized (you must remember that Lithuania and Poland were, in general, the one country, connected with Union). Today, after the II WW there are only two Tatar's villages in Poland (they're still have Islam as main religion, as well the traditions) and they're mostly dispersed.
Some of the Tatars were lived also in Volhynia and Podolia (today Ukraine) in 17th-18th centuries.

As I said, only brief history

Regards

erlikhan · 23rd June 2005, 12:11 AM

thanks. short but quite informing. but not enough especially to solve the mystery for me, why Tatar sabers are rare? Odd, when their militaristic state and community considered. They stood independent till 1783. i think it is a date, which should be close enough to let more samples still exist .

17th July 2006, 05:27 PM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Tamga looks like that of Kanly tribe, but there are so many families in this tribe, or Zhapas clan of Bauly tribe (second picture). I think it is the second one, quite a distinctive tamga. Rotation of the symbol relative to the blade's surface is irrelevant. On the other hand, Kanly is a much more prominent tribe when it comes to europeans tatars, Osman family belonged to kanly (?). On the other hand Bauly where related to parts of Nogai horde, so they were periodicly appearing around Balkans. Attached Images

22nd June 2005, 10:29 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Rivkin, as far as i know,tamgas are primarily to show ownership of a land, building, cattles,sheep, horses anything. was used to understand to whom or which tribe anything belonged in nomadic life's enormous distances and continuously changing settlement locations . tamga - damga means "stamp" in Turkish and first purpose was to sign animals with hot iron i am sure. tamgas should be extremely important to prevent any mistakes, even potential wars. started in middle Ajian steppes and carried to everywhere Turks settled. became an identity symbol for people as well in time, and every tribe, every band, any people had own tamgas. (especially among Tatars, who continued nomadic and semi nomadic life longer than Turkey). Below is the flag of Crimean Tatars with their tamga, used when they were independent, and later autonomyous under Russian rule till 1944,the date they were expelled to other regions). Ottomans were from "Kayi" band of "Oguz" tribe, and they used the Kayi tamga as a military sign widely struck on most arms and armors officialy ordered and manufactured for the state arsenal in Istanbul. I cant find a picture of it at the moment but i think is already well known among Ottoman arms collectioners. I know northern coasts of Black Sea down to somewhere like south Romania was Tatar land, and in 18-19th centuries conquered by Russians, and just to northwest of Tatars,today's Ukraine and Belarus was Poland at that time. Lvov is in that region,ok. But I didnt know about a large Tatar population in Poland. Were they same with Crimean ones? Or were they to north, and Christians like Lithuanian Tatars? Were they loyal to Poland or what? In fact I am not even sure about Lithuania Tatars too, if they were Moslem or Christian. If Poland had some Tatar population and there are still samples of their sabers, today's south Ukraine, Moldova and Russia ,once densely crowdedly Tatar established regions with strong Tatar armies, should not have much more samples? Why doesnt any come from there, unlike raining Kindjals,shashkas etc.? Any ideas? Would one be able to find any if travels to Crimea and Ukraine?I would desire to have one or more from those regards Attached Images Last edited by erlikhan; 23rd June 2005 at 10:12 AM.

21st June 2005, 04:37 PM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	While we are on this topic, are there any good publications on the history of the Tatars post Jochi? or for that matter the Lithuanian Tatars? Jeff

21st June 2005, 05:55 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Ok...now I'm getting interested in Tatar swords (not just the sauce ). One more area to collect....sigh

17th July 2006, 05:51 PM	#4
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Ariel, The sword you mentioned on eBay is a pastiche. The hilt is modern, the blade old. The tamga shown on it was copied out of a book. Hard enough to learn about these things from originals without being confounded by copies, I say. The seller offered it in all good faith, was emailed when it was recognized as a copy and to his credit has not offered it at auction again. Ham

22nd June 2005, 06:44 PM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	1. Thank you Jim for your kind words, but my contribution was rather insignificant. 2. When it comes to tatar history, while I'm pretty sure there should be some (probably polish ?) books on lithuanian and polish tatars, the whole topic is very poorly researched. The reasons in my opinion being current poverty of tatars, endless inter-tribal warfare that in the past have led to the destruction of major centers of tatar civilization, preserverance of nomadic lifestyle (extremely complicating the efforts of archeology), relative isolation from other centers of civilization, replacement of yasa by islam (in my opinion have lead to acceptance of arab/mamluk point of view on mongol/tatar history). A good example - why there are so many hexagrams on tatar coats of arms ? The obvious answer is an islamic one - it's a seal of Solomon. Unfortunately it creates more questions than answers: While another extremely popular symbol is an eight point star (octagramm) ? It has no specific symbolism in Islam. Why hexagrams very often appear multiple times - 3 hexgrams in Bucharin's symbolics, 4+1 in Usupov's ? Why this symbol sometimes predates what we consider an islamic period in turkish history, if not islam itself ? Sometimes it's been explained as a jewish symbol, but it does not remove the main problem, which is that besides speculations we know very little.

23rd June 2005, 12:11 AM	#10
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	thanks. short but quite informing. but not enough especially to solve the mystery for me, why Tatar sabers are rare? Odd, when their militaristic state and community considered. They stood independent till 1783. i think it is a date, which should be close enough to let more samples still exist .