eBay MORO KRIS WOOTZ??

Andrew · 19th December 2004, 07:13 PM

I've not read about wootz "technology" getting as far as the Philippines, and the seller did qualify the comment with a parenthetical addition of "layered, laminated, watered, Damascus". As we've seen, the terms are often innacurately used interchangeably.

Moro weapons are not my thing, but my first thought when I saw the auction was "tourist". The fittings just have that bazaar look to them, designed to attract the eye, and the blade looks crude. For the life of me, I can't see anything I would describe as laminate construction, let alone wootz or watered steel.

Federico · 19th December 2004, 08:28 PM

The pattern on this blade was made with a process of battery acid etching, and soil burying. Ive gone through a number of touristy and fake weapons, on whcih this has been done. A shame, as many had good hardened blades, on the thin side, but functional enough. But just the detail the guys making these things think collectors are looking for.

As for wootz, Ive heard (now Im not big on metallurgy, and its been years since Ive read much), that once its heated above a certain temp the pattern is permanently lost. However, to forge at the lower temps in which to keep the pattern, one has a tight temp range, in which you can either go to cool and the blade becomes brittle and breaks during forging, or to hot and the pattern is lost. Given this tight range of temperature. I could easily see a Panday, not knowing exactly what kind of steel it is, and forging it as he's forged a hundred other kris, and losing the pattern with the hotter temp. Or on the flip side, thinking the tight temp range to achieve the pattern, not worth the effort when pattern welding is more understood. Or on the flip side of that, perhaps there was ceremonial/talismanic beliefs making one stay with traditional steels. Who knows. But on the flip side, when looking at trading patterns, why werent there more wootz Chinese blades, or wootz Dhas, etc... Two areas closer to India. Particularly for steel, Ive seen chinese pots, European stock, and local Malay/Indo sources cited in various manifests. While British would bring in Indian made cloth, I havent seen records of Indian made steel. How common was wootz in Britain?

RSWORD · 19th December 2004, 08:35 PM

I would guess that the forging of wootz was a tightly guarded secret. That knowledge was not exported to other regions so that is probably why you don't see wootz popping up too often in other mounts, unless, it is a trade blade that has already been forged. Then you do see wootz popping up in a variety of mounts.

Rick · 19th December 2004, 08:38 PM

I suspect that it was not very popular as a blade material Battara.
Aside from forging as Rick says I would think English standards required a much more flexible blade .

Battara · 19th December 2004, 08:47 PM

On the other hand, I suspect that once in a while a wootz piece could have been traded and used on a blade. Take this example of a gunong I have:

Battara · 19th December 2004, 08:55 PM

Now here is the close up of the blade (looks like wootz, doesn't it):

Mick · 20th December 2004, 02:02 AM

Sorry Battara

That's a folded blade, not wootz.

Andrew · 20th December 2004, 03:50 AM

I agree with Mick, Jose. That looks forge-folded. Is it polished like a Japanese blade, or etched like a keris?

Wow. What an interesting blade.

Federico · 20th December 2004, 02:46 PM

Are the white specs just dust in the scan, or is that actually in the steel?

Ferguson · 20th December 2004, 08:40 PM

A poor picture of a Tulwar with a wootz blade.
Steve

19th December 2004, 08:38 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Wootz I suspect that it was not very popular as a blade material Battara. Aside from forging as Rick says I would think English standards required a much more flexible blade .

19th December 2004, 08:47 PM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	On the other hand, I suspect that once in a while a wootz piece could have been traded and used on a blade. Take this example of a gunong I have: Attached Images

19th December 2004, 08:55 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Now here is the close up of the blade (looks like wootz, doesn't it): Attached Images

19th December 2004, 07:13 PM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I've not read about wootz "technology" getting as far as the Philippines, and the seller did qualify the comment with a parenthetical addition of "layered, laminated, watered, Damascus". As we've seen, the terms are often innacurately used interchangeably. Moro weapons are not my thing, but my first thought when I saw the auction was "tourist". The fittings just have that bazaar look to them, designed to attract the eye, and the blade looks crude. For the life of me, I can't see anything I would describe as laminate construction, let alone wootz or watered steel.

19th December 2004, 08:28 PM	#2
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	The pattern on this blade was made with a process of battery acid etching, and soil burying. Ive gone through a number of touristy and fake weapons, on whcih this has been done. A shame, as many had good hardened blades, on the thin side, but functional enough. But just the detail the guys making these things think collectors are looking for. As for wootz, Ive heard (now Im not big on metallurgy, and its been years since Ive read much), that once its heated above a certain temp the pattern is permanently lost. However, to forge at the lower temps in which to keep the pattern, one has a tight temp range, in which you can either go to cool and the blade becomes brittle and breaks during forging, or to hot and the pattern is lost. Given this tight range of temperature. I could easily see a Panday, not knowing exactly what kind of steel it is, and forging it as he's forged a hundred other kris, and losing the pattern with the hotter temp. Or on the flip side, thinking the tight temp range to achieve the pattern, not worth the effort when pattern welding is more understood. Or on the flip side of that, perhaps there was ceremonial/talismanic beliefs making one stay with traditional steels. Who knows. But on the flip side, when looking at trading patterns, why werent there more wootz Chinese blades, or wootz Dhas, etc... Two areas closer to India. Particularly for steel, Ive seen chinese pots, European stock, and local Malay/Indo sources cited in various manifests. While British would bring in Indian made cloth, I havent seen records of Indian made steel. How common was wootz in Britain?

19th December 2004, 08:35 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	I would guess that the forging of wootz was a tightly guarded secret. That knowledge was not exported to other regions so that is probably why you don't see wootz popping up too often in other mounts, unless, it is a trade blade that has already been forged. Then you do see wootz popping up in a variety of mounts.

20th December 2004, 02:02 AM	#7
Mick Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 104	Sorry Battara That's a folded blade, not wootz.

20th December 2004, 03:50 AM	#8
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I agree with Mick, Jose. That looks forge-folded. Is it polished like a Japanese blade, or etched like a keris? Wow. What an interesting blade.

20th December 2004, 02:46 PM	#9
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Are the white specs just dust in the scan, or is that actually in the steel?

20th December 2004, 08:40 PM	#10
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	A poor picture of a Tulwar with a wootz blade. Steve