Real "ninja" sword, or modern invention?

Rich · 18th November 2010, 10:08 PM

"Actually, I found one aside that suggested that Stephen Hayes invented the straight-bladed ninja-to. That's an interesting suggestion to follow up on."

Like I said, ninjato are a Hollywood invention :-)

Rich S
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
"Old Puukkophile"

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

VANDOO · 19th November 2010, 01:22 AM

THE NINJA DID EXHIST BUT WERE A SECRET ORGANIZATION. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAD TO BELONG TO A CERTIAN CLASS OR CLAN TO BECOME NINJA (ONLY SAMAURI NEED APPLY

)BUT IT IS LIKELY.
THEY WOULD HAVE CARRIED SWORDS AND TOOLS JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN EVERDAY LIFE. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NOTHING CARRIED THAT WOULD IDENTIFY THEM AS NINJA. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN WEAPONS AND TOOLS THAT WERE ONLY ASSOCIATED WITH NINJA CARRIED ON CERTIAN OPERATIONS WHEN THEY WANTED EVERYONE TO KNOW NINJA DID IT. BUT I SUSPECT IN MANY INSTANCES THEY TRIED TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE SOMEONE ELSE DID IT OR IT WAS AN ACCIDENT.
PERHAPS IN SOME MUSEUM THERE ARE WEAPONS TAKEN FROM NINJA IN ACTUAL BATTLE AND SOME OF THE FORMS OF WEAPONS WE NOW SEE ATTRIBUTED TO THEM MAY HAVE BEEN BASED ON THEM. BUT I AM SURE MANY ARE LIKELY TO HAVE LITTLE RESEMBLANCE TO THE ORIGINALS OR BE ENTIRELY MADE UP BY NON NINJA IN MODERN TIMES.
ASSASINS GENERALLY LIKE TO LEAVE AS LITTLE INFORMATION OR EVIDENCE AS POSSIBLE AND SELDOM ATTACKED WITH AN ARMY, NINJA WERE NO EXCEPTION. I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON ASSASINS OR NINJA BUT HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCH AND READING OVER THE YEARS SO THESE ARE MY THOUGHTS ON IT.
I HAVE SEEN NO AUTHENTIC EXAMPLES OF THE NINJA SWORD BUT THE WEAPON WITH THE BLUNT END TO THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE A RELATIVE OF THE DHA TO ME.

fearn · 19th November 2010, 02:12 AM

Hi Vandoo,

I'll direct your attention to The Iga Ninja Museum, which, so far as I can determine, is genuine. It's an old ninja safe-house, retrofitted as a museum.

The bottom line is that there are authentic ninja weapons out there. That's why I figured it was worth asking around.

Best,

F

fearn · 19th November 2010, 05:01 AM

Actually, on the theme of genuine ninja swords, I believe that Masaaki Hatsumi (Togakure ryu soke) said that the sword carried by the Iga ninja was basically a wakizashi with a katana hilt, carried in a katana sheath. The shorter blade made for an unexpectedly fast draw and better fighting in close quarters.

Has anyone seen a sword of this type?

Best,

F

fearn · 19th November 2010, 06:59 PM

I hate posting three in a row, but I realize this morning that I'd ignored a couple of Vandoo's points.

The important one is that yes, it looks like a Montagnard dha, except for being two-edged. The question then is, how do you get from the highlands to Japan or Hawaii. Perhaps someone fighting in Vietnam saw one and/or brought one home as a souvenir? That would make it very modern.

To answer Vandoo's other question, AFAIK, the ninja were a mix. Some samurai went ninja, and I think some outcast samurai became the Iga and Koga ninjas. The Iga and Koga were effectively untouchables, outcasts (I think) who were hired to do the dishonorable jobs no samurai would officially touch.

The Saito ryu founding story has the Saito family being rural farmers who acquired their martial arts prowess through supernatural aid (see the link at the head of the thread), who then went on to defend their village against marauders for a thousand years, give or take. They explicitly deny any connection to the Iga and Koga ninja.

Other websites have attacked the Saito ryu's story. My take on the controversy is that their story would be more believable if there was an antique tengu sword in a collection somewhere. Based on the lack of historic documentation or old weapons, it looks like Saito Ryu is a relatively modern invention, complete with the tengu sword. But I could be wrong.

Best,

F

Best,

F

David R · 19th December 2012, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Actually, on the theme of genuine ninja swords, I believe that Masaaki Hatsumi (Togakure ryu soke) said that the sword carried by the Iga ninja was basically a wakizashi with a katana hilt, carried in a katana sheath. The shorter blade made for an unexpectedly fast draw and better fighting in close quarters.

Has anyone seen a sword of this type?

Best,

F

An old thread I know, and possibly superseded, but I came across this item on Usagiya and thought hmmm!

fearn · 19th December 2012, 04:00 PM

Could be. Is it terrible in the sense of ugly, or terrible in the sense of unusable? If it's ugly but quite functional, that's possibly an indicator.

Thanks for pointing this out.

Best,

F

David R · 19th December 2012, 04:57 PM

What I think is intriguing is that the blade fits the saya.....I have two wakizashi in original saya and 3 spare saya and none of them are interchangeable.
I can think of other reasons for this set up, poverty, aspiration or simply making an item more saleable, but it is interesting all the same in the light of the above.

18th November 2010, 10:08 PM	#1
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	"Actually, I found one aside that suggested that Stephen Hayes invented the straight-bladed ninja-to. That's an interesting suggestion to follow up on." Like I said, ninjato are a Hollywood invention :-) Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD "Old Puukkophile" Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm -------------------------------------------------------

19th November 2010, 01:22 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE NINJA DID EXHIST BUT WERE A SECRET ORGANIZATION. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAD TO BELONG TO A CERTIAN CLASS OR CLAN TO BECOME NINJA (ONLY SAMAURI NEED APPLY )BUT IT IS LIKELY. THEY WOULD HAVE CARRIED SWORDS AND TOOLS JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN EVERDAY LIFE. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NOTHING CARRIED THAT WOULD IDENTIFY THEM AS NINJA. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN WEAPONS AND TOOLS THAT WERE ONLY ASSOCIATED WITH NINJA CARRIED ON CERTIAN OPERATIONS WHEN THEY WANTED EVERYONE TO KNOW NINJA DID IT. BUT I SUSPECT IN MANY INSTANCES THEY TRIED TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE SOMEONE ELSE DID IT OR IT WAS AN ACCIDENT. PERHAPS IN SOME MUSEUM THERE ARE WEAPONS TAKEN FROM NINJA IN ACTUAL BATTLE AND SOME OF THE FORMS OF WEAPONS WE NOW SEE ATTRIBUTED TO THEM MAY HAVE BEEN BASED ON THEM. BUT I AM SURE MANY ARE LIKELY TO HAVE LITTLE RESEMBLANCE TO THE ORIGINALS OR BE ENTIRELY MADE UP BY NON NINJA IN MODERN TIMES. ASSASINS GENERALLY LIKE TO LEAVE AS LITTLE INFORMATION OR EVIDENCE AS POSSIBLE AND SELDOM ATTACKED WITH AN ARMY, NINJA WERE NO EXCEPTION. I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON ASSASINS OR NINJA BUT HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCH AND READING OVER THE YEARS SO THESE ARE MY THOUGHTS ON IT. I HAVE SEEN NO AUTHENTIC EXAMPLES OF THE NINJA SWORD BUT THE WEAPON WITH THE BLUNT END TO THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE A RELATIVE OF THE DHA TO ME.

19th November 2010, 02:12 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Vandoo, I'll direct your attention to The Iga Ninja Museum, which, so far as I can determine, is genuine. It's an old ninja safe-house, retrofitted as a museum. The bottom line is that there are authentic ninja weapons out there. That's why I figured it was worth asking around. Best, F

19th November 2010, 05:01 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Actually, on the theme of genuine ninja swords, I believe that Masaaki Hatsumi (Togakure ryu soke) said that the sword carried by the Iga ninja was basically a wakizashi with a katana hilt, carried in a katana sheath. The shorter blade made for an unexpectedly fast draw and better fighting in close quarters. Has anyone seen a sword of this type? Best, F

19th November 2010, 06:59 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I hate posting three in a row, but I realize this morning that I'd ignored a couple of Vandoo's points. The important one is that yes, it looks like a Montagnard dha, except for being two-edged. The question then is, how do you get from the highlands to Japan or Hawaii. Perhaps someone fighting in Vietnam saw one and/or brought one home as a souvenir? That would make it very modern. To answer Vandoo's other question, AFAIK, the ninja were a mix. Some samurai went ninja, and I think some outcast samurai became the Iga and Koga ninjas. The Iga and Koga were effectively untouchables, outcasts (I think) who were hired to do the dishonorable jobs no samurai would officially touch. The Saito ryu founding story has the Saito family being rural farmers who acquired their martial arts prowess through supernatural aid (see the link at the head of the thread), who then went on to defend their village against marauders for a thousand years, give or take. They explicitly deny any connection to the Iga and Koga ninja. Other websites have attacked the Saito ryu's story. My take on the controversy is that their story would be more believable if there was an antique tengu sword in a collection somewhere. Based on the lack of historic documentation or old weapons, it looks like Saito Ryu is a relatively modern invention, complete with the tengu sword. But I could be wrong. Best, F Best, F

19th December 2012, 04:00 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Could be. Is it terrible in the sense of ugly, or terrible in the sense of unusable? If it's ugly but quite functional, that's possibly an indicator. Thanks for pointing this out. Best, F

19th December 2012, 04:57 PM	#8
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,116	What I think is intriguing is that the blade fits the saya.....I have two wakizashi in original saya and 3 spare saya and none of them are interchangeable. I can think of other reasons for this set up, poverty, aspiration or simply making an item more saleable, but it is interesting all the same in the light of the above.