Real "ninja" sword, or modern invention?

fearn · 14th November 2010, 08:07 PM

Thanks Rich. Neat site! Might be fun if you put up a kubikiri thread sometime.

One question: do you know of any two-edged, curved tantos? That's what this tengu sword has: it has a two-edged blade, but the tip is (roughly) chisel-tipped like a conventional Japanese blade, except that it's rounded for slashing. I'm not an expert on Japanese blades, and I don't know of any Japanese blades with this shape.

Ah well, I like weird swords, regardless.

Best,

F

Rich · 14th November 2010, 08:13 PM

Yes, I've seen double edged curved tanto (don't recall the name of the style off hand). But I've not seen any swords with a rounded kissaki (point) like that in the picture.

Rich S
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
"Old Puukkophile"

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

fearn · 17th November 2010, 05:40 AM

No one else? Not that I don't value Dr. Stein's quality as an expert, but it would be great if some of the other collectors chimed in with a "nope, haven't seen one of them either."

Also, if it's a modern invention, what's the inspiration? Do we have a completely new sword design here, despite all the carping about how non-traditional this school is? That's pretty unusual in itself.

Best,

F

Marc · 18th November 2010, 03:42 PM

Well, It's only my own experience, but... I could repeat it one thousand times and still my word wouldn't have but a thousandth of weight that Dr. Stein's regarding this subject. In short, that I haven't found any ninjato nor anything similar (and I haven't) in my research experience, isn't significant. That Dr. Stein hasn't, is.

There's no such thing as a ninjato in the long and pretty well documented japanese sword history. You may find typologies thay may resemble what is nowadays known as ninjato, but they had their own historical context and had no direct (and much less exclusive) connection with the (historical) ninja.
Yes, it's a modern invention. Media are a very powerful force, much more than we frequently account them for.

fearn · 18th November 2010, 07:04 PM

Thanks Marc,

Actually, I found one aside that suggested that Stephen Hayes invented the straight-bladed ninja-to. That's an interesting suggestion to follow up on.

But no, my question isn't about the ninja-to, it's about that tengu sword in the middle. AFAIK, the tengu sword has never been to Hollywood, it would be illegal to carry it down the street near the dojos it's in, and it's taught as a weapon in a school that claims a long and colorful history leading back to Japan.

I figure that most weapons don't spring from a vacuum, and if this "tengu sword" is Japanese and anywhere near as old as the school claims, there are probably weapons like it lying about in people's collections.

So far, no one's come up with another example, which leads me to suspect that we actually have a brand new sword here, invented by the Saito family in Hawaii or possibly Japan. That's neat in itself. Most swords don't have known inventors.

Best,

F

Rich · 18th November 2010, 10:08 PM

"Actually, I found one aside that suggested that Stephen Hayes invented the straight-bladed ninja-to. That's an interesting suggestion to follow up on."

Like I said, ninjato are a Hollywood invention :-)

Rich S
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
"Old Puukkophile"

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

VANDOO · 19th November 2010, 01:22 AM

THE NINJA DID EXHIST BUT WERE A SECRET ORGANIZATION. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAD TO BELONG TO A CERTIAN CLASS OR CLAN TO BECOME NINJA (ONLY SAMAURI NEED APPLY

)BUT IT IS LIKELY.
THEY WOULD HAVE CARRIED SWORDS AND TOOLS JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN EVERDAY LIFE. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NOTHING CARRIED THAT WOULD IDENTIFY THEM AS NINJA. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN WEAPONS AND TOOLS THAT WERE ONLY ASSOCIATED WITH NINJA CARRIED ON CERTIAN OPERATIONS WHEN THEY WANTED EVERYONE TO KNOW NINJA DID IT. BUT I SUSPECT IN MANY INSTANCES THEY TRIED TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE SOMEONE ELSE DID IT OR IT WAS AN ACCIDENT.
PERHAPS IN SOME MUSEUM THERE ARE WEAPONS TAKEN FROM NINJA IN ACTUAL BATTLE AND SOME OF THE FORMS OF WEAPONS WE NOW SEE ATTRIBUTED TO THEM MAY HAVE BEEN BASED ON THEM. BUT I AM SURE MANY ARE LIKELY TO HAVE LITTLE RESEMBLANCE TO THE ORIGINALS OR BE ENTIRELY MADE UP BY NON NINJA IN MODERN TIMES.
ASSASINS GENERALLY LIKE TO LEAVE AS LITTLE INFORMATION OR EVIDENCE AS POSSIBLE AND SELDOM ATTACKED WITH AN ARMY, NINJA WERE NO EXCEPTION. I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON ASSASINS OR NINJA BUT HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCH AND READING OVER THE YEARS SO THESE ARE MY THOUGHTS ON IT.
I HAVE SEEN NO AUTHENTIC EXAMPLES OF THE NINJA SWORD BUT THE WEAPON WITH THE BLUNT END TO THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE A RELATIVE OF THE DHA TO ME.

14th November 2010, 08:07 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks Rich. Neat site! Might be fun if you put up a kubikiri thread sometime. One question: do you know of any two-edged, curved tantos? That's what this tengu sword has: it has a two-edged blade, but the tip is (roughly) chisel-tipped like a conventional Japanese blade, except that it's rounded for slashing. I'm not an expert on Japanese blades, and I don't know of any Japanese blades with this shape. Ah well, I like weird swords, regardless. Best, F

14th November 2010, 08:13 PM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Yes, I've seen double edged curved tanto (don't recall the name of the style off hand). But I've not seen any swords with a rounded kissaki (point) like that in the picture. Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD "Old Puukkophile" Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

17th November 2010, 05:40 AM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	No one else? Not that I don't value Dr. Stein's quality as an expert, but it would be great if some of the other collectors chimed in with a "nope, haven't seen one of them either." Also, if it's a modern invention, what's the inspiration? Do we have a completely new sword design here, despite all the carping about how non-traditional this school is? That's pretty unusual in itself. Best, F

18th November 2010, 03:42 PM	#4
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Well, It's only my own experience, but... I could repeat it one thousand times and still my word wouldn't have but a thousandth of weight that Dr. Stein's regarding this subject. In short, that I haven't found any ninjato nor anything similar (and I haven't) in my research experience, isn't significant. That Dr. Stein hasn't, is. There's no such thing as a ninjato in the long and pretty well documented japanese sword history. You may find typologies thay may resemble what is nowadays known as ninjato, but they had their own historical context and had no direct (and much less exclusive) connection with the (historical) ninja. Yes, it's a modern invention. Media are a very powerful force, much more than we frequently account them for.

18th November 2010, 07:04 PM	#5
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks Marc, Actually, I found one aside that suggested that Stephen Hayes invented the straight-bladed ninja-to. That's an interesting suggestion to follow up on. But no, my question isn't about the ninja-to, it's about that tengu sword in the middle. AFAIK, the tengu sword has never been to Hollywood, it would be illegal to carry it down the street near the dojos it's in, and it's taught as a weapon in a school that claims a long and colorful history leading back to Japan. I figure that most weapons don't spring from a vacuum, and if this "tengu sword" is Japanese and anywhere near as old as the school claims, there are probably weapons like it lying about in people's collections. So far, no one's come up with another example, which leads me to suspect that we actually have a brand new sword here, invented by the Saito family in Hawaii or possibly Japan. That's neat in itself. Most swords don't have known inventors. Best, F

18th November 2010, 10:08 PM	#6
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	"Actually, I found one aside that suggested that Stephen Hayes invented the straight-bladed ninja-to. That's an interesting suggestion to follow up on." Like I said, ninjato are a Hollywood invention :-) Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD "Old Puukkophile" Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm -------------------------------------------------------

19th November 2010, 01:22 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE NINJA DID EXHIST BUT WERE A SECRET ORGANIZATION. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY HAD TO BELONG TO A CERTIAN CLASS OR CLAN TO BECOME NINJA (ONLY SAMAURI NEED APPLY )BUT IT IS LIKELY. THEY WOULD HAVE CARRIED SWORDS AND TOOLS JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN EVERDAY LIFE. THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN NOTHING CARRIED THAT WOULD IDENTIFY THEM AS NINJA. THERE MAY HAVE BEEN WEAPONS AND TOOLS THAT WERE ONLY ASSOCIATED WITH NINJA CARRIED ON CERTIAN OPERATIONS WHEN THEY WANTED EVERYONE TO KNOW NINJA DID IT. BUT I SUSPECT IN MANY INSTANCES THEY TRIED TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE SOMEONE ELSE DID IT OR IT WAS AN ACCIDENT. PERHAPS IN SOME MUSEUM THERE ARE WEAPONS TAKEN FROM NINJA IN ACTUAL BATTLE AND SOME OF THE FORMS OF WEAPONS WE NOW SEE ATTRIBUTED TO THEM MAY HAVE BEEN BASED ON THEM. BUT I AM SURE MANY ARE LIKELY TO HAVE LITTLE RESEMBLANCE TO THE ORIGINALS OR BE ENTIRELY MADE UP BY NON NINJA IN MODERN TIMES. ASSASINS GENERALLY LIKE TO LEAVE AS LITTLE INFORMATION OR EVIDENCE AS POSSIBLE AND SELDOM ATTACKED WITH AN ARMY, NINJA WERE NO EXCEPTION. I AM NOT AN EXPERT ON ASSASINS OR NINJA BUT HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCH AND READING OVER THE YEARS SO THESE ARE MY THOUGHTS ON IT. I HAVE SEEN NO AUTHENTIC EXAMPLES OF THE NINJA SWORD BUT THE WEAPON WITH THE BLUNT END TO THE BLADE LOOKS LIKE A RELATIVE OF THE DHA TO ME.