machetes,, regional styles..

Billman · 14th November 2010, 05:58 PM

Thanks for those images of the dreaded Dacian falx - again lots of debate on the origins - tool or weapon??? I guess that like the bill of the medieval English footsoldier, the beidane of the Italian Swiss border region of Piemonte, the trombash/trumbash of the Mangebetu and other sickle weapons of central Africa, the tool and the weapon are closely related, even interchangeable at times.... which came first is a bit like the chicken and the egg question..

In England a national standing army, centrally equipped, only came into being after the Napoleonic Wars - before that local squires raised local yeomanry companies that had to equip themselves.... hence the diversity of weapon shapes and types (with the possible exception of the long bow). The Romans may have been a bit better organised - but most of their enemies appear to have been small kingdoms locally equipped. Only large and powerful countries or city-states could afford to have and equip a permanent fighting force.

We have digressed a little from machetes, but it is likely that their development follows the same process - an existing tool (billhook, pruning hook or vine-leaf pruning knife) or weapon (sword or cutlass) altered to suit a local need - in the same way that over 200 regional billhook shapes exist in both the UK and France - all to carry out the same basic function of cutting geen wood, but all altered to suit the user and the local conditions (the hedges of Devon are different to those of Wales, which are different to those of the Midlands or Yorkshire and so on)...

Even the death of a smith can have an effect on the way a weapon or tool is/was made -the later Tenterdon billhooks made by Elwell c 1960 are the same shape, and have the same stamps, but are twice the thickness and weight of those made 20 years earlier.... different smith - different tool (or weapon)...

fearn · 14th November 2010, 07:59 PM

Hi Billman,

I'd disagree about hedges being an 18th century invention. According to the British historical ecologists I've read, hedges are much older (cf: books by Arthur Rackham).

But let's get to some linguistics? The Dacian implement was termed a falx, and that name comes into French as fauchard, which implements such as bank blades are still called in French. In English, a fauchard is a bill.

To my eye, falx also looks like it gave rise into falchion, and the conventional excuse for the relative dearth of historical falchions relative to swords was that they were used in agriculture when not used in the field.

I'm not going to try to trace the machete from the falchion, but I think they were similar blades doing similar things, and I also think the linguistic evidence suggests that the falx and the falchion are related, at least according to the people who used them.

Best,

F

Billman · 15th November 2010, 08:56 AM

No, hedges are much older than the 18th century - but up to that date they were old hedges - often the remains of ancient woodlands left to define boundaries... After the Enclosure Acts, small medieval field systems were consolidated into large fields, marked out by ditches and with new hedges of thorn planted on the top of the mound of earth. Southern and Midlands counties had tens of thousands of miles of new hedges planted. After a few years the new hedges required trimming and making into animal proof barriers. So the old craft of pleaching became the widespread craft of hedgelaying.... from that time just about every farm labourer became proficient at hedge laying and so required a billhook or two... Every five to ten years they need re-laying...

Ref falx, falchion, faucille etc.... Falx is the Latin for a curved cutting tool - in latin its designation was qualified by an adjective, hence falx vinitoria was the name for the vine pruning billhook. On its own falx usually referrred to a scythe for grass cutting, but also a smaller sickle (both tools were used in Roman times). Latin was the language of scholars and scribes, and was used for legal documents, inventories of possessions, historical records (Latin terms are still used in English law and in medicine today).

Many languages incorporate Latin roots, English and French included - in french a scythe is a 'faux' and a sickle a 'faucille' - literaly a small scythe...
Dialect names include 'faucillon' and 'fauchard' (amongst others from other languages - remember 150 years ago only about 10% of the french spoke french as a first language). A scytheman is a 'faucheur'...

The Romans use of the word 'falx' to define the Dacian sword was thus a reference to its shape, not necessarily its function....

Regarding the lack of historical evidence - most battle sites were scavenged for anything of value - weapons and the iron and steel they were made of were valuable assets.. In times of peace, weapons were no longer required - think of recent history - after WWll some weapons remained in private hands, but most went back to the armouries... How much medieval weaponry or armour remained in the 19th century; how many 19th century weapons remained in the Royal Armouries in the 20th century???

Even possession of hand tools has changed - as a boy in the 1950's I used a billhook daily to cut firewood - every house in our small town of 5000 inhabitants had at least one. Today, 50 years later, most people have never seen one - they switch on the central heating when they are cold; they prune their hedges with an electic hedge trimmer; use secateurs on fruit trees and roses.... Apart from a minority who either collect them, or use them for conservation work, they have died out of the collective memory and if a catastrophe destroyed our civilisation they would appear to be a rarity.... 50 years ago the situation would have been different, 150 years previous to that even more different... After 1000, or 2000, years even less would have survived...

Pukka Bundook · 15th November 2010, 01:59 PM

Billman,

Re the newer and older Elwell bills;

We had a newer one, clumsy thing it was. Gave it away when we came to Canada. The old ones came with us!!
One of the old ones was very light, good even for a lot of slasher work.
A short bill sits beside the stove in the workshop, used for splitting kindling...
It was made in 1915, I believe.

mrwizard · 11th December 2010, 03:39 PM

Interesting thread...
Here is a regional billhook from the area where i live.
It is called "Haubergsknipp" or just "Knipp".

It is used in a traditional kind of woodland management called "Hauberg" for clearing out the underbrush and removing small twigs. The bill was used to scarify the bark of the trees so it could be peeled. The bark was harvested as tanning agent. The wood was used to make charcoal.

http://www.hauberg.onlinehome.de/de/jahreslauf.html
Sadly, i couldn't find any english language description decription

The depicted specimen is roughly 100 years old and has been used for at least 70 years.

Best Regards
Thilo

fearn · 11th December 2010, 04:04 PM

Hi Mrwizard,

I think the English term may be coppicing (Wikipedia link). The use of oak bark for tanning is quite old, of course.

Best,

F

mrwizard · 11th December 2010, 04:20 PM

Thanks Fearn,
"coppicing" is indeed the correct term. :-)

14th November 2010, 05:58 PM	#1
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	Thanks for those images of the dreaded Dacian falx - again lots of debate on the origins - tool or weapon??? I guess that like the bill of the medieval English footsoldier, the beidane of the Italian Swiss border region of Piemonte, the trombash/trumbash of the Mangebetu and other sickle weapons of central Africa, the tool and the weapon are closely related, even interchangeable at times.... which came first is a bit like the chicken and the egg question.. In England a national standing army, centrally equipped, only came into being after the Napoleonic Wars - before that local squires raised local yeomanry companies that had to equip themselves.... hence the diversity of weapon shapes and types (with the possible exception of the long bow). The Romans may have been a bit better organised - but most of their enemies appear to have been small kingdoms locally equipped. Only large and powerful countries or city-states could afford to have and equip a permanent fighting force. We have digressed a little from machetes, but it is likely that their development follows the same process - an existing tool (billhook, pruning hook or vine-leaf pruning knife) or weapon (sword or cutlass) altered to suit a local need - in the same way that over 200 regional billhook shapes exist in both the UK and France - all to carry out the same basic function of cutting geen wood, but all altered to suit the user and the local conditions (the hedges of Devon are different to those of Wales, which are different to those of the Midlands or Yorkshire and so on)... Even the death of a smith can have an effect on the way a weapon or tool is/was made -the later Tenterdon billhooks made by Elwell c 1960 are the same shape, and have the same stamps, but are twice the thickness and weight of those made 20 years earlier.... different smith - different tool (or weapon)... Last edited by Billman; 14th November 2010 at 06:35 PM.

15th November 2010, 08:56 AM	#3
Billman Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 129	No, hedges are much older than the 18th century - but up to that date they were old hedges - often the remains of ancient woodlands left to define boundaries... After the Enclosure Acts, small medieval field systems were consolidated into large fields, marked out by ditches and with new hedges of thorn planted on the top of the mound of earth. Southern and Midlands counties had tens of thousands of miles of new hedges planted. After a few years the new hedges required trimming and making into animal proof barriers. So the old craft of pleaching became the widespread craft of hedgelaying.... from that time just about every farm labourer became proficient at hedge laying and so required a billhook or two... Every five to ten years they need re-laying... Ref falx, falchion, faucille etc.... Falx is the Latin for a curved cutting tool - in latin its designation was qualified by an adjective, hence falx vinitoria was the name for the vine pruning billhook. On its own falx usually referrred to a scythe for grass cutting, but also a smaller sickle (both tools were used in Roman times). Latin was the language of scholars and scribes, and was used for legal documents, inventories of possessions, historical records (Latin terms are still used in English law and in medicine today). Many languages incorporate Latin roots, English and French included - in french a scythe is a 'faux' and a sickle a 'faucille' - literaly a small scythe... Dialect names include 'faucillon' and 'fauchard' (amongst others from other languages - remember 150 years ago only about 10% of the french spoke french as a first language). A scytheman is a 'faucheur'... The Romans use of the word 'falx' to define the Dacian sword was thus a reference to its shape, not necessarily its function.... Regarding the lack of historical evidence - most battle sites were scavenged for anything of value - weapons and the iron and steel they were made of were valuable assets.. In times of peace, weapons were no longer required - think of recent history - after WWll some weapons remained in private hands, but most went back to the armouries... How much medieval weaponry or armour remained in the 19th century; how many 19th century weapons remained in the Royal Armouries in the 20th century??? Even possession of hand tools has changed - as a boy in the 1950's I used a billhook daily to cut firewood - every house in our small town of 5000 inhabitants had at least one. Today, 50 years later, most people have never seen one - they switch on the central heating when they are cold; they prune their hedges with an electic hedge trimmer; use secateurs on fruit trees and roses.... Apart from a minority who either collect them, or use them for conservation work, they have died out of the collective memory and if a catastrophe destroyed our civilisation they would appear to be a rarity.... 50 years ago the situation would have been different, 150 years previous to that even more different... After 1000, or 2000, years even less would have survived... Last edited by Billman; 15th November 2010 at 09:13 AM.

11th December 2010, 03:39 PM	#5
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Interesting thread... Here is a regional billhook from the area where i live. It is called "Haubergsknipp" or just "Knipp". It is used in a traditional kind of woodland management called "Hauberg" for clearing out the underbrush and removing small twigs. The bill was used to scarify the bark of the trees so it could be peeled. The bark was harvested as tanning agent. The wood was used to make charcoal. http://www.hauberg.onlinehome.de/de/jahreslauf.html Sadly, i couldn't find any english language description decription The depicted specimen is roughly 100 years old and has been used for at least 70 years. Best Regards Thilo Attached Images

14th November 2010, 07:59 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Billman, I'd disagree about hedges being an 18th century invention. According to the British historical ecologists I've read, hedges are much older (cf: books by Arthur Rackham). But let's get to some linguistics? The Dacian implement was termed a falx, and that name comes into French as fauchard, which implements such as bank blades are still called in French. In English, a fauchard is a bill. To my eye, falx also looks like it gave rise into falchion, and the conventional excuse for the relative dearth of historical falchions relative to swords was that they were used in agriculture when not used in the field. I'm not going to try to trace the machete from the falchion, but I think they were similar blades doing similar things, and I also think the linguistic evidence suggests that the falx and the falchion are related, at least according to the people who used them. Best, F

15th November 2010, 01:59 PM	#4
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Billman, Re the newer and older Elwell bills; We had a newer one, clumsy thing it was. Gave it away when we came to Canada. The old ones came with us!! One of the old ones was very light, good even for a lot of slasher work. A short bill sits beside the stove in the workshop, used for splitting kindling... It was made in 1915, I believe.

11th December 2010, 04:04 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Mrwizard, I think the English term may be coppicing (Wikipedia link). The use of oak bark for tanning is quite old, of course. Best, F

11th December 2010, 04:20 PM	#7
mrwizard Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Dortmund, Germany Posts: 102	Thanks Fearn, "coppicing" is indeed the correct term. :-)