Real "ninja" sword, or modern invention?

Rich · 14th November 2010, 11:56 AM

I can't speak to the tengu sword (Looks like a bad, bent naganata), but the "ninja" sword is a modern fiction. There is no credible historical evidence of such swords in Japan. They are basically a modern Hollywood invention - pure fiction. I suspect the same for the tengu sword.

Rich S

-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
"Old Puukkophile"

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

fearn · 14th November 2010, 03:44 PM

Hi Rich,

That much I know, and I'm not arguing that the ninja-to is a genuine historical design, used by real ninja.

As for the tengu sword, it's weird enough that I figured I would ask. It's certainly an original design, and it hasn't been commercialized the way the ninja-to has.

Assuming it's modern leads to a fun question: why create an anachronistic weapon that's only used in a few martial arts schools in Hawaii, California, and Arizona? In California, at least, carrying that sword would be a felony.

The other thing is that Japan does have an extensive history of weird weapons, and people do collect them. If the tengu sword has any historical precedents (perhaps a military kama?), I figured someone on the list might know.

Best,

F

Rich · 14th November 2010, 04:57 PM

The only reverse edged Japanese weapon/tool that I'm aware of is the KUBIKIRI or BOKUWARI. These were basically bonsai or gardening tools (although lots of fancy tales about them). I've only personally seen them in tanto size although I did see a pic of one on a sales site years ago in wakizashi length.

Might want to look at my page on unusual tanto for a kubikiri pic.

Rich S
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
"Old Puukkophile"

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
-------------------------------------------------------

fearn · 14th November 2010, 08:07 PM

Thanks Rich. Neat site! Might be fun if you put up a kubikiri thread sometime.

One question: do you know of any two-edged, curved tantos? That's what this tengu sword has: it has a two-edged blade, but the tip is (roughly) chisel-tipped like a conventional Japanese blade, except that it's rounded for slashing. I'm not an expert on Japanese blades, and I don't know of any Japanese blades with this shape.

Ah well, I like weird swords, regardless.

Best,

F

Rich · 14th November 2010, 08:13 PM

Yes, I've seen double edged curved tanto (don't recall the name of the style off hand). But I've not seen any swords with a rounded kissaki (point) like that in the picture.

Rich S
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD
"Old Puukkophile"

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

fearn · 17th November 2010, 05:40 AM

No one else? Not that I don't value Dr. Stein's quality as an expert, but it would be great if some of the other collectors chimed in with a "nope, haven't seen one of them either."

Also, if it's a modern invention, what's the inspiration? Do we have a completely new sword design here, despite all the carping about how non-traditional this school is? That's pretty unusual in itself.

Best,

F

Marc · 18th November 2010, 03:42 PM

Well, It's only my own experience, but... I could repeat it one thousand times and still my word wouldn't have but a thousandth of weight that Dr. Stein's regarding this subject. In short, that I haven't found any ninjato nor anything similar (and I haven't) in my research experience, isn't significant. That Dr. Stein hasn't, is.

There's no such thing as a ninjato in the long and pretty well documented japanese sword history. You may find typologies thay may resemble what is nowadays known as ninjato, but they had their own historical context and had no direct (and much less exclusive) connection with the (historical) ninja.
Yes, it's a modern invention. Media are a very powerful force, much more than we frequently account them for.

14th November 2010, 03:44 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Rich, That much I know, and I'm not arguing that the ninja-to is a genuine historical design, used by real ninja. As for the tengu sword, it's weird enough that I figured I would ask. It's certainly an original design, and it hasn't been commercialized the way the ninja-to has. Assuming it's modern leads to a fun question: why create an anachronistic weapon that's only used in a few martial arts schools in Hawaii, California, and Arizona? In California, at least, carrying that sword would be a felony. The other thing is that Japan does have an extensive history of weird weapons, and people do collect them. If the tengu sword has any historical precedents (perhaps a military kama?), I figured someone on the list might know. Best, F Last edited by fearn; 14th November 2010 at 04:01 PM.

14th November 2010, 11:56 AM	#1
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	I can't speak to the tengu sword (Looks like a bad, bent naganata), but the "ninja" sword is a modern fiction. There is no credible historical evidence of such swords in Japan. They are basically a modern Hollywood invention - pure fiction. I suspect the same for the tengu sword. Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD "Old Puukkophile" Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm -------------------------------------------------------

14th November 2010, 04:57 PM	#3
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	The only reverse edged Japanese weapon/tool that I'm aware of is the KUBIKIRI or BOKUWARI. These were basically bonsai or gardening tools (although lots of fancy tales about them). I've only personally seen them in tanto size although I did see a pic of one on a sales site years ago in wakizashi length. Might want to look at my page on unusual tanto for a kubikiri pic. Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD "Old Puukkophile" Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm -------------------------------------------------------

14th November 2010, 08:07 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Thanks Rich. Neat site! Might be fun if you put up a kubikiri thread sometime. One question: do you know of any two-edged, curved tantos? That's what this tengu sword has: it has a two-edged blade, but the tip is (roughly) chisel-tipped like a conventional Japanese blade, except that it's rounded for slashing. I'm not an expert on Japanese blades, and I don't know of any Japanese blades with this shape. Ah well, I like weird swords, regardless. Best, F

14th November 2010, 08:13 PM	#5
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Yes, I've seen double edged curved tanto (don't recall the name of the style off hand). But I've not seen any swords with a rounded kissaki (point) like that in the picture. Rich S ------------------------------------------------------- Richard Stein, PhD "Old Puukkophile" Japanese Sword Guide http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

17th November 2010, 05:40 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	No one else? Not that I don't value Dr. Stein's quality as an expert, but it would be great if some of the other collectors chimed in with a "nope, haven't seen one of them either." Also, if it's a modern invention, what's the inspiration? Do we have a completely new sword design here, despite all the carping about how non-traditional this school is? That's pretty unusual in itself. Best, F

18th November 2010, 03:42 PM	#7
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Well, It's only my own experience, but... I could repeat it one thousand times and still my word wouldn't have but a thousandth of weight that Dr. Stein's regarding this subject. In short, that I haven't found any ninjato nor anything similar (and I haven't) in my research experience, isn't significant. That Dr. Stein hasn't, is. There's no such thing as a ninjato in the long and pretty well documented japanese sword history. You may find typologies thay may resemble what is nowadays known as ninjato, but they had their own historical context and had no direct (and much less exclusive) connection with the (historical) ninja. Yes, it's a modern invention. Media are a very powerful force, much more than we frequently account them for.