Hungarian saber 15thC

Samik · 4th November 2010, 12:38 AM

Those are some lovely pieces indeed, thank you very much for posting those pics !

As to the provenance of the original saber(s) I'd say it could be both Hungarian or Venetian (or even Balkan in origin) - Venice had a considerable influence on Hungaro-Balkan arms and amour (the blade however would be after the Turkish fashion of course).. I imagine that such a saber could easily have been carried by either a period Hungarian Hussar, Venetian Stradiot or even a Rumelian (european) Ottoman trooper.. Do note also the slightly canted handle on some pieces as well.. Many of the men serving in those units were often of mixed heritage that is Serb/Magyar (early hussars) , Albanian/Greek (stradiots) to name a few.. During the period in questions these nations were heavily influenced by both North Italian as well as Ottoman Turkish trends. A result of this mating can be imho quite clearly seen in those transitional sabers.

I recently spotted a somewhat similar depiction of a saber in an Altair painting back home in our church (Bardejov, Slovakia , former Upper Hungary) dated to 1480s - depicting a scene with a byzantine emperor Heraclius...

data from imareal:

Kunstwerk: Temperamalerei-Holz ; Einrichtung sakral ; Flügelaltar Kreuzigungsaltar ; Slowakei ; Kreuzerhöhung:03:016-027
Dokumentation: 1480 ; 1490 ; Bardejov ; Slowakei ; Pfarrkirche St. Ägidius
Anmerkungen: 700x800 ; Bardejov ; Libuse Cidlinska, Goticke kridlove oltare na Slovensku, 1989, S. 30f

overview

Closeups done by myself:

(note the S or almost figure 8 shaped cross-guard, I believe some authors calls this "schiavonesca" style, afaik such curved quilllons were not only restricted to those weapons only)

Collection of XV. century sabres from Budapest National Museum (source: Régi Magyar Fegyverek by Kalmár János):

Some more from B.N.M - courtesy of http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua :

http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hung...ges/bwm011.jpg

+

http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hung...ges/bwm012.jpg

(closeup on yelmen)

source: http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hung...muz/index.html

Cheers,
Samuel

cornelistromp · 4th November 2010, 12:21 PM

Hi Samuel,

thanks a lot for the valuable information about this type of saber, there is little in Western European books to find.

particularly interesting is the 15th century painting with an identical saber and of course the museum link

thank you for this post, this helps me a lot further

kind regards

Evgeny_K · 23rd April 2019, 05:08 PM

Gents,
What do you think about this beauty?
Unlike the examples above, this one has a straight crossguard (not S-shaped).
Are swords/sabers known with this kind of crossguard?
There is a marking on the tang (hope it will be more visible after cleaning).

Victrix · 23rd April 2019, 07:42 PM

Hi Evgeny,

That’s an interesting sword. It looks like a combination of the sciavonesca swords pictured earlier in this thread, and the early hussar swords like the one of Stephen Bathory posted here (see below). I must confess that I never saw one like yours before, but I can’t rule out that it could be a transitionary example from the S shaped crossguard to a straight crossguard but before adopting the almond shaped pommel of later hussar swords. It looks like a hussar sword with a strong Venetian (because of the cat’s head pommel) connection. Venice and its surroundings supplied a lot of arms to Hungary, and parts of Dalmatia and the hinterland in Croatia was then part of Hungary in a dual monarchy. There were also many Slavic mercenaries from those territories that served in Venice.

It would be great to see the mark on the tang after cleaning.

Evgeny_K · 24th April 2019, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Victrix

Hi Evgeny,

That’s an interesting sword. It looks like a combination of the sciavonesca swords pictured earlier in this thread, and the early hussar swords like the one of Stephen Bathory posted here (see below). I must confess that I never saw one like yours before, but I can’t rule out that it could be a transitionary example from the S shaped crossguard to a straight crossguard but before adopting the almond shaped pommel of later hussar swords. It looks like a hussar sword with a strong Venetian (because of the cat’s head pommel) connection. Venice and its surroundings supplied a lot of arms to Hungary, and parts of Dalmatia and the hinterland in Croatia was then part of Hungary in a dual monarchy. There were also many Slavic mercenaries from those territories that served in Venice.

It would be great to see the mark on the tang after cleaning.

Hi
Don't you think it could be an example of a transitional sword model with "classical" straight crossguard which will be replaced later with S-shaped crossguard? Or it could be some kind of local feature...

Victrix · 24th April 2019, 07:52 PM

The common denominator of all the swords in this thread is Hungary. The Hungarian kingdom pre-1918 was much bigger than today, and encompassed vast pusztas and a coast on the Adriatic Sea. Swords with S-shaped guards and cat’s head pommels are deemed to be medieval Hungarian. The cat’s head pommels are thought of as of Venetian (on the Adriatic sea) origin. Your sword looks like a hussar sword with a cat’s head pommel. These hussar swords later had almond shaped pommels (late medieval time) and the crossguards became smaller/shorter. Ironically the straight cross guard on the sabres may have been a Turkish/Ottoman influence. At the end of the 16th and during the 17thC the Hungarian hussar sabres were very similar to Turkish ones.

Victrix · 24th April 2019, 10:00 PM

Hmm... I just noticed that your sword lacks langets on the cross guard which seems odd. So it then looks like a knightly sword with a Hungarian type pommel and a Turkish style sabre blade with a yelman? Seems a little bit too mixed to me.

I would argue that knightly swords are separate from sabres which developed out of the Asian steppes.

23rd April 2019, 05:08 PM	#3
Evgeny_K Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 213	Gents, What do you think about this beauty? Unlike the examples above, this one has a straight crossguard (not S-shaped). Are swords/sabers known with this kind of crossguard? There is a marking on the tang (hope it will be more visible after cleaning). Attached Images

23rd April 2019, 07:42 PM	#4
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Hi Evgeny, That’s an interesting sword. It looks like a combination of the sciavonesca swords pictured earlier in this thread, and the early hussar swords like the one of Stephen Bathory posted here (see below). I must confess that I never saw one like yours before, but I can’t rule out that it could be a transitionary example from the S shaped crossguard to a straight crossguard but before adopting the almond shaped pommel of later hussar swords. It looks like a hussar sword with a strong Venetian (because of the cat’s head pommel) connection. Venice and its surroundings supplied a lot of arms to Hungary, and parts of Dalmatia and the hinterland in Croatia was then part of Hungary in a dual monarchy. There were also many Slavic mercenaries from those territories that served in Venice. It would be great to see the mark on the tang after cleaning. Attached Images

4th November 2010, 12:38 AM	#1
Samik Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Slovakia Posts: 48	Those are some lovely pieces indeed, thank you very much for posting those pics ! As to the provenance of the original saber(s) I'd say it could be both Hungarian or Venetian (or even Balkan in origin) - Venice had a considerable influence on Hungaro-Balkan arms and amour (the blade however would be after the Turkish fashion of course).. I imagine that such a saber could easily have been carried by either a period Hungarian Hussar, Venetian Stradiot or even a Rumelian (european) Ottoman trooper.. Do note also the slightly canted handle on some pieces as well.. Many of the men serving in those units were often of mixed heritage that is Serb/Magyar (early hussars) , Albanian/Greek (stradiots) to name a few.. During the period in questions these nations were heavily influenced by both North Italian as well as Ottoman Turkish trends. A result of this mating can be imho quite clearly seen in those transitional sabers. I recently spotted a somewhat similar depiction of a saber in an Altair painting back home in our church (Bardejov, Slovakia , former Upper Hungary) dated to 1480s - depicting a scene with a byzantine emperor Heraclius... data from imareal: Kunstwerk: Temperamalerei-Holz ; Einrichtung sakral ; Flügelaltar Kreuzigungsaltar ; Slowakei ; Kreuzerhöhung:03:016-027 Dokumentation: 1480 ; 1490 ; Bardejov ; Slowakei ; Pfarrkirche St. Ägidius Anmerkungen: 700x800 ; Bardejov ; Libuse Cidlinska, Goticke kridlove oltare na Slovensku, 1989, S. 30f overview Closeups done by myself: (note the S or almost figure 8 shaped cross-guard, I believe some authors calls this "schiavonesca" style, afaik such curved quilllons were not only restricted to those weapons only) Collection of XV. century sabres from Budapest National Museum (source: Régi Magyar Fegyverek by Kalmár János): Some more from B.N.M - courtesy of http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua : http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hung...ges/bwm011.jpg + http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hung...ges/bwm012.jpg (closeup on yelmen) source: http://museum.velizariy.kiev.ua/hung...muz/index.html Cheers, Samuel

4th November 2010, 12:21 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Samuel, thanks a lot for the valuable information about this type of saber, there is little in Western European books to find. particularly interesting is the 15th century painting with an identical saber and of course the museum link thank you for this post, this helps me a lot further kind regards

24th April 2019, 07:52 PM	#6
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	The common denominator of all the swords in this thread is Hungary. The Hungarian kingdom pre-1918 was much bigger than today, and encompassed vast pusztas and a coast on the Adriatic Sea. Swords with S-shaped guards and cat’s head pommels are deemed to be medieval Hungarian. The cat’s head pommels are thought of as of Venetian (on the Adriatic sea) origin. Your sword looks like a hussar sword with a cat’s head pommel. These hussar swords later had almond shaped pommels (late medieval time) and the crossguards became smaller/shorter. Ironically the straight cross guard on the sabres may have been a Turkish/Ottoman influence. At the end of the 16th and during the 17thC the Hungarian hussar sabres were very similar to Turkish ones.

24th April 2019, 10:00 PM	#7
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 755	Hmm... I just noticed that your sword lacks langets on the cross guard which seems odd. So it then looks like a knightly sword with a Hungarian type pommel and a Turkish style sabre blade with a yelman? Seems a little bit too mixed to me. I would argue that knightly swords are separate from sabres which developed out of the Asian steppes.