Rapier for coments

[cornelistromp]

That exactly the right size and type of pommel is found is way too coincidental.
no, my vote goes to ORIGINAL.
the color of the metal and the pitting is consistent with other parts of this rapier.
Because mostly the pommel is touched over the time by hands here one sees more severe pitting.

Best,

[celtan]

Very true. Hilts _and pommels_ are often replaced because of hand-sweat's salinity. And due to the different steel qualities, swords retrieved from churches or tombs often needed to have both replaced.
In cold, dry climates, _oiled_ blades kept protected within leathern scabbards often survived for long periods (even if the scabbard did not) , while he exposed hilts/pommels suffered direly.
IIRC, we had an interesting thread on that years ago, didn't we Jim?
To me, the pommel looks good, but it might be a replacement. How easy was it to replace a pommel?
Nando, is the sword well balanced? If its not, there we have the answer.
Best
M

[fernando]

Hi Manolete,

Originally Posted by celtan

... Hilts and pommels_are often replaced because of hand-sweat's salinity. And due to the different steel qualities, swords retrieved from churches or tombs often needed to have both replaced...

A reason you didn't mention is the decision to substitute (not replace) the pommel in order to alter the sword's center of balance. Suppose the owner was a fencer and wished to have a different (better) handling controll?
Or suppose this pommel was a family heirloom and he was honoured to mount it in his sword?
But i am only digressing ... for reasons connected with this pommel being the discussion "battle horse" or, in other words, the "pommel of the question"

Originally Posted by celtan

...To me, the pommel looks good, but it might be a replacement. How easy was it to replace a pommel?
Nando, is the sword well balanced? If its not, there we have the answer...

I am not the right person to tell you that; besides not being a fencer, i am a forced left hander. But yes, i find it quite maneuvrable, with such a long blade and the center of balance rather close from the guard. Mind you, the hilt complex (ricasso+grip+pommel) is quite lengthy, with its 20 cms (8").

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

The color of the metal and the pitting is consistent with other parts of this rapier.
Because mostly the pommel is touched over the time by hands here one sees more severe pitting.

This kind of deep of deep und irregular, but not crisp pitting is typical of excavated finds that were heavily grinded with sandpaper in order took better. The main part of the pommel is almost never touched by the hand, just the grip binding and hilt are. The homogenuous surface color seems to be a good repatination probably using olive or crude linseed oil and a yellowish lacquer. It can be achieved within hours.

In contrast, the surfaces of the blade and pommel of the piece you posted are obviously homogenuous and belong.

Best,
Michael

[celtan]

Hi M,

I follow your reasoning, but I differ somewhat. I believe that the part of the sword that is mostly in contact with the hand is precisely the pommel, specially if it is as big as this one is.

I speak from personal experience, I often carry swords around, and to control their movement while walking I usually keep them held by the pommel. Try it yourself.

: )

Best

M

Originally Posted by Matchlock

This kind of deep of deep und irregular, but not crisp pitting is typical of excavated finds that were heavily grinded with sandpaper in order took better. The main part of the pommel is almost never touched by the hand, just the grip binding and hilt are. The homogenuous surface color seems to be a good repatination probably using olive or crude linseed oil and a yellowish lacquer. It can be achieved within hours.

In contrast, the surfaces of the blade and pommel of the piece you posted are obviously homogenuous and belong.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Manuel,

Agreed - I cannot compete with your actual experience in handling swords.

Besides my collection of earliest arsenal firearms and accouterments, I can only boast on possessing three swords: two extremely rare early 16th century Italian Landsknecht sabers, one of whom I posted here in a thread on its own, and a very fine ca. 1600 Munich Stantler rapier in as new original condition, which I will post soon.

That's why, in discussing edged weapons, I generally rely on my experienced friend Ottmar.

Thank you and best,
Michael

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

This kind of deep of deep und irregular, but not crisp pitting is typical of excavated finds that were heavily grinded with sandpaper in order took better. The main part of the pommel is almost never touched by the hand, just the grip binding and hilt are. The homogenuous surface color seems to be a good repatination probably using olive or crude linseed oil and a yellowish lacquer. It can be achieved within hours.

Not necessarily so.
Such judgement may well be most influenced by the quality of pictures, which in many cases tend to distort the actual colour of objects.
These were taken by night, with flash, so achievement is not close from real .
Looking at the lower close up picture in my post #10, we observe a more stabilized situation ... though yet not perfect.

[Matchlock]

OK, 'Nando,

I see and accept your argument. Of course I can only judge by what I think I can interpret from the images.

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

That exactly the right size and type of pommel is found is way too coincidental.
no, my vote goes to ORIGINAL.
the color of the metal and the pitting is consistent with other parts of this rapier.
Because mostly the pommel is touched over the time by hands here one sees more severe pitting.

Best,

Very well put and shown, Cornelis.

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

That exactly the right size and type of pommel is found is way too coincidental.

Best,

There are hundreds of detached original pommels in various conditions on the market every year, and almost all of them are purchased by dealers and forgers. Can you image the reason?

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

There are hundreds of detached original pommels in various conditions on the market every year, and almost all of them are purchased by dealers and forgers. Can you image the reason?

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

of course I know and see a lot of replaced pommels, especially on medieval swords. recently I noticed a cast one at a London auction house which gave
some discussion just before the sale.

I must admit it is very amusing to see that you changed your mind on this pommel from an inapt English ground find to "maybe" belonging to this piece

Kind regards from Holland

[Matchlock]

Hi Cornelis,

Please remember we all had to rely on photos, and almost anything is possible ...

Though I usually have a well based opinion at the point of posting, I try not to be too dogmatic.

Good night and be well,
Michael

[fernando]

New pictures.
This time in my back veranda, with daylight, before the sun hits the place.

.

[Matchlock]

Thank you, 'Nando,

Now it's clear even to me that the pitting of the pommel and blade is homogenuous.

Please bury my theories at Wounded Knee ...

Best,
Michl

[werecow]

I thought I'd add two similar ones I ran into recently. This first one is listed on a German site as "Rapier, deutsch um 1600". The inscription is hard to read but according to the seller it's "MERTEN STOS ME FECIT", which sounds German. The quillons are slightly different, maybe a slightly wider blade, different grip wire, wider pommel. Otherwise identical.

[werecow]

This second one is listed as "ENGLISH DUELING RAPIER C.1625". No thrust plate on this one, but the pommel is more similar. Marked "THOMAS D AIELES".