Kaskara for Comment.

Edster · 3rd November 2010, 12:22 AM

This is my first post so kindly forgive any errors.

The stamp blade mark in an 8/9/09 exchange between Rick and Wodimi (Wolf) is the Fly or duran . It’s a bit of symbolic magic so the user can jump like a fly when fighting. See the attached photo of a similar version of the mark from the Kassala, Sudan Suq al Haddad circa 1984

Also, silver furniture on the sword handles also is magic in that it protects the user from sword wounds. Copper also protects, but silver trumps copper.

Thanks,
Edster

Iain · 3rd November 2010, 05:00 PM

Hi Edster,

Interesting information in your post. Could you elaborate on the source or if it's from on the ground discussions you had in Sudan?

Very interesting subject for sure!

Best,

Iain

Rumpel · 3rd November 2010, 10:47 PM

Hi David,

Remembering your kaskara isn't a problem; I just wish I could forget it. Jealousy's a terrible thing...

I tried to go to the BM in my lunch break today, but strikes worked against me. Having looked on the website (and it was the Sainsbury, rather than Sackler gallery

), the only kaskara viewable was this: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...ern/sword.aspx

It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

katana · 4th November 2010, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rumpel

Hi David,

It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

Hi Rumpel,
thanks for the reply and further info.

I suspect 'Jealousy' is something we all feel from time to time.....I certainly do....many formites have swords and weapons that should be home with me

...not them

I e-mailed Durham twice, but received no reply. There is a good chance that the correct department didn't recieve them...or perhaps IT security protocols sent my e-mails to a 'spam' folder.
I would love to follow this up....if you have a contact name or e-mail address at Durham that would help the 'cause'....could you PM them to me. Failing that perhaps 'snail' mail may work.

Kind Regards David

katana · 4th November 2010, 10:47 PM

Hi Edster,
hello and welcome to the forum

. I have read your posts with interest .....and would love to hear more.

Regards David

Edster · 5th November 2010, 02:18 AM

Thanks, David. I really glad I lucked on to the EAA forum. Great informative posts and a great bunch of folks interested in sharing knowledge.

A couple of stylistic areas I like to see explored:

1.) Most of the kaskaras I saw in Kassala and in the Mahdi Museum in Omdurman had intergral "tassles" on the handles. Some of the photos shared on the forum have them while others do not. I wonder if tassles are time and or place of origin related. I have a silver mounted kaskara from Eastern Sudan supposedly circa 1915, plus two others with just leather from there as well. All three have tassles. I wonder if examples from Chad and Western Sudan are without.

2.) Some blades have talismic stamps like the Fly referenced in a post above. It would be neat to catalogue as many stamps as possible to assist in identification in time and place of origin is possible. It was told to me that the "Suliman" has five groves that extend down a third of the blade followed by a multi-rayed sun is the "Suliman Abu Shammish" (Father of the Sun). Also, the +O symbol is a Drum to build up courage while the Rampant Lion is a "Dukare Affringe" for brave men. Another one is a circle, sometimes two with a couple of small circles inside and a wiggly line inside. I don't recall what this one means, but it fairly common. I'm not aware of any special time or place criteria for these except I learned about them and saw samples in Kassala, Eastern Sudan in 1984. My inspection sample is rather limited. There must be several other examples in the Forum's collections or in reference books.

The beating of big tribal brass or copper?? drums was a big deal during the Mahdiya and any time tribal unity was needed. (Sort of like "calling out the clan" in Scottish history, I imagine. Many were buried after the British reconquest and their locations have been lost to the tribal groups and to history.

Take care,
Edster

Iain · 5th November 2010, 10:15 AM

Hi Ed,

Very interesting notes. In particular your comments about the +O markings. As these undoubtedly are derived from the common Solingen cross and orb markings. I find it fascinating the mark was not only applied by local smiths, but also co-opted for a specific talismanic intention. While it has been long assumed that European marks where applied locally as a sign of quality, I at least had been unaware that such specific meanings had been assigned to them.

I wonder if the same meanings cross apply to takouba blades... I have an old takouba blade with the cross and orb, however the application of the marks makes it somewhat suspect to me that they are European in origin. It would be interesting if similar talismanic meanings crossed over into Tuareg culture.

Where you aware of any locally applied running wolf markings and specific meanings attached to them in the kaskaras you saw?

Best,

Iain

Rick · 3rd November 2010, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

This is my first post so kindly forgive any errors.

The stamp blade mark in an 8/9/09 exchange between Rick and Wodimi (Wolf) is the Fly or duran . It’s a bit of symbolic magic so the user can jump like a fly when fighting. See the attached photo of a similar version of the mark from the Kassala, Sudan Suq al Haddad circa 1984

Also, silver furniture on the sword handles also is magic in that it protects the user from sword wounds. Copper also protects, but silver trumps copper.

Thanks,
Edster

Thank you !

Duran, talismanic .

Interesting .

Rick

Edster · 4th November 2010, 12:13 AM

Iain,

I spent a week at the Kassala, Sudan blacksmith market in 1984 and did socio-economic research with the sword and knife makers there. Learned about the manufacturing processes as well as historic and cultural significance of sword and knife use. Hopefully, a paper I wrote of the experience will be shared on the EAA forum in the next week or so.

The info on the Fly motif was provided by swordsmiths and other knowledgable members of the market.

It was an exciting and rare opportunity to see how the kaskara swords were made much like they had always been made, at least since forged steel blades were worked.

Best regards,
Ed

Iain · 4th November 2010, 09:09 AM

Hi Ed,

Always very exciting to hear from people who've had the opportunity to do first hand research.

I can't wait to read your paper. The talismanic meanings behind some of the blade markings are something that quite a few people have speculated about but having hands on confirmation is amazing!

Really looking forward to learning more from your experiences.

Cheers,

Iain

Edster · 4th November 2010, 04:17 PM

Hi Iain,

Islam didn't get a good foothold in Sudan until the 14-15 Century. Also, Popular Islam as practiced by most folks in the countryside retained a lot of pre-Islamic elements and also tended toward Sufi mysticism. People did a lot of symbolic things to gain "baraka" or Allah's blessing including Koranic inscriptions and amulets to protect from this and that. Anything to reduce risk and increase self confidence in a highly uncertain environment, especially in war or just being out and about in a socially unpredictible environment. Also, if it were publically known that you had a sword with a silver wrapped handle your religo-magic protection would be greater than a potential attacker with just a leather wrapped one.

When I was there I carried an amulet or two myself and have always given money to begger women just to increase my chances of avoiding misfortune. In Islam to give money to the poor increases baraka or blessing.

Religo-magic isn't only popular in rural Islam. I have a replica of a cast bronze 700 B. C. Late Bronze - Early Iron Age axe head from the South Russia Steppes. It has two 1/8 inch iron rod serpentine inlayes on each face in form of snakes. Snake Cults were popular in the area at the time and in the period iron was more valuable than gold. Also, on the axe head are eight crudely engraved small fish. Fish represent the Underworld in the cosmology of the time and place.

There seems to me to be a parallel between the use of rare metals and religious inscriptions to protect one in battle. It may be rewarding to examine other weapons from other places/times to find and identify what talismen may be incorporated into the design. Items of material culture usually reflect some component of social culture as well.

Best regards,
Ed

3rd November 2010, 12:22 AM	#1
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	This is my first post so kindly forgive any errors. The stamp blade mark in an 8/9/09 exchange between Rick and Wodimi (Wolf) is the Fly or duran . It’s a bit of symbolic magic so the user can jump like a fly when fighting. See the attached photo of a similar version of the mark from the Kassala, Sudan Suq al Haddad circa 1984 Also, silver furniture on the sword handles also is magic in that it protects the user from sword wounds. Copper also protects, but silver trumps copper. Thanks, Edster Attached Images

3rd November 2010, 05:00 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Edster, Interesting information in your post. Could you elaborate on the source or if it's from on the ground discussions you had in Sudan? Very interesting subject for sure! Best, Iain

3rd November 2010, 10:47 PM	#3
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	Hi David, Remembering your kaskara isn't a problem; I just wish I could forget it. Jealousy's a terrible thing... I tried to go to the BM in my lunch break today, but strikes worked against me. Having looked on the website (and it was the Sainsbury, rather than Sackler gallery ), the only kaskara viewable was this: http://www.britishmuseum.org/explore...ern/sword.aspx It's similar, yet different (pommel especially). And it's 18th c, whereas the one I saw was definitely labelled as 20th c. Maybe I was wrong about the similarities- I was working from memory, I'm afraid-but it would definitely be worth you sending in a photo for them to puzzle over. The closest parallels to yours I can think of are this one, and the kaskara of Ali Dinar I was fortunate enough to once handle. I'm no expert, but I think you've stumbled across a high-status weapon. Did you have any luck with Durham, btw?

4th November 2010, 10:47 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Edster, hello and welcome to the forum . I have read your posts with interest .....and would love to hear more. Regards David

5th November 2010, 02:18 AM	#6
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	Thanks, David. I really glad I lucked on to the EAA forum. Great informative posts and a great bunch of folks interested in sharing knowledge. A couple of stylistic areas I like to see explored: 1.) Most of the kaskaras I saw in Kassala and in the Mahdi Museum in Omdurman had intergral "tassles" on the handles. Some of the photos shared on the forum have them while others do not. I wonder if tassles are time and or place of origin related. I have a silver mounted kaskara from Eastern Sudan supposedly circa 1915, plus two others with just leather from there as well. All three have tassles. I wonder if examples from Chad and Western Sudan are without. 2.) Some blades have talismic stamps like the Fly referenced in a post above. It would be neat to catalogue as many stamps as possible to assist in identification in time and place of origin is possible. It was told to me that the "Suliman" has five groves that extend down a third of the blade followed by a multi-rayed sun is the "Suliman Abu Shammish" (Father of the Sun). Also, the +O symbol is a Drum to build up courage while the Rampant Lion is a "Dukare Affringe" for brave men. Another one is a circle, sometimes two with a couple of small circles inside and a wiggly line inside. I don't recall what this one means, but it fairly common. I'm not aware of any special time or place criteria for these except I learned about them and saw samples in Kassala, Eastern Sudan in 1984. My inspection sample is rather limited. There must be several other examples in the Forum's collections or in reference books. The beating of big tribal brass or copper?? drums was a big deal during the Mahdiya and any time tribal unity was needed. (Sort of like "calling out the clan" in Scottish history, I imagine. Many were buried after the British reconquest and their locations have been lost to the tribal groups and to history. Take care, Edster

5th November 2010, 10:15 AM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Ed, Very interesting notes. In particular your comments about the +O markings. As these undoubtedly are derived from the common Solingen cross and orb markings. I find it fascinating the mark was not only applied by local smiths, but also co-opted for a specific talismanic intention. While it has been long assumed that European marks where applied locally as a sign of quality, I at least had been unaware that such specific meanings had been assigned to them. I wonder if the same meanings cross apply to takouba blades... I have an old takouba blade with the cross and orb, however the application of the marks makes it somewhat suspect to me that they are European in origin. It would be interesting if similar talismanic meanings crossed over into Tuareg culture. Where you aware of any locally applied running wolf markings and specific meanings attached to them in the kaskaras you saw? Best, Iain

4th November 2010, 12:13 AM	#9
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	Iain, I spent a week at the Kassala, Sudan blacksmith market in 1984 and did socio-economic research with the sword and knife makers there. Learned about the manufacturing processes as well as historic and cultural significance of sword and knife use. Hopefully, a paper I wrote of the experience will be shared on the EAA forum in the next week or so. The info on the Fly motif was provided by swordsmiths and other knowledgable members of the market. It was an exciting and rare opportunity to see how the kaskara swords were made much like they had always been made, at least since forged steel blades were worked. Best regards, Ed

4th November 2010, 09:09 AM	#10
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Ed, Always very exciting to hear from people who've had the opportunity to do first hand research. I can't wait to read your paper. The talismanic meanings behind some of the blade markings are something that quite a few people have speculated about but having hands on confirmation is amazing! Really looking forward to learning more from your experiences. Cheers, Iain

4th November 2010, 04:17 PM	#11
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 415	Hi Iain, Islam didn't get a good foothold in Sudan until the 14-15 Century. Also, Popular Islam as practiced by most folks in the countryside retained a lot of pre-Islamic elements and also tended toward Sufi mysticism. People did a lot of symbolic things to gain "baraka" or Allah's blessing including Koranic inscriptions and amulets to protect from this and that. Anything to reduce risk and increase self confidence in a highly uncertain environment, especially in war or just being out and about in a socially unpredictible environment. Also, if it were publically known that you had a sword with a silver wrapped handle your religo-magic protection would be greater than a potential attacker with just a leather wrapped one. When I was there I carried an amulet or two myself and have always given money to begger women just to increase my chances of avoiding misfortune. In Islam to give money to the poor increases baraka or blessing. Religo-magic isn't only popular in rural Islam. I have a replica of a cast bronze 700 B. C. Late Bronze - Early Iron Age axe head from the South Russia Steppes. It has two 1/8 inch iron rod serpentine inlayes on each face in form of snakes. Snake Cults were popular in the area at the time and in the period iron was more valuable than gold. Also, on the axe head are eight crudely engraved small fish. Fish represent the Underworld in the cosmology of the time and place. There seems to me to be a parallel between the use of rare metals and religious inscriptions to protect one in battle. It may be rewarding to examine other weapons from other places/times to find and identify what talismen may be incorporated into the design. Items of material culture usually reflect some component of social culture as well. Best regards, Ed