Rapier for coments

Jim McDougall · 2nd November 2010, 04:02 PM

In my earlier post I mentioned that there were of course distinct affiliations between Germany and England in the 17th century, and the Hounslow factory was begun with German swordsmiths brought there by invitation by the English king about the time of the English Civil Wars.

I agree that the metal used in various components would result in different types and stages of corrosion and wear. As noted, the rewrapping and refurbishing of hilts often accounts for the somewhat composite nature of rapiers typically found. These swords were often reworked as they, like many weapons, often had service life which lasted beyond a single generation.

Once again returning to the multinational nature of these components, the shells in the guard, which are as agree of pappenheimer style, in the pierced openwork seem to reflect a quatrefoil shape. While obviously an architectural feature often used widely, it brings to mind ecclesiastical style, and reminds me of that in many English churches.

I do hope this suggestion might be considered as I would like to know if the shape of these designs might be relevenant in possible further English origin for this rapier.

Best regards,
Jim

fernando · 2nd November 2010, 05:55 PM

Thank you Gentlemen for keeping this discussion going on.
Interesting to read your honest, though diverse, currents of opinion.

Thanks a lot Cornelis, for your input and for the pictures of your beautiful rapier by Clemens. There realy are close similarities between your example and mine.
I am rather intrigued that, being the seller of my sword a German, with a significant knowledge of antique weapons, did not hesitate to classify it as an estoc bladed rapier of the Milanese fencing school.
However reading your considerations supported by your Clemens example, i am about to digest the possibility of my piece being also German.

Herewith a couple close up pictures of the grip wire wrapping, to help try and discern its possible age.

.

cornelistromp · 2nd November 2010, 06:15 PM

Hi Fernando,

herewith some pictures that will help you to digest the matter of the pommel
and also helps me to confirm the German origin.

best regards

fernando · 2nd November 2010, 06:34 PM

Hi Cornelis,
No kidding ... you have just convinced me; this now becoming easy to digest

.
Some of the details are extremely familiar.
What references have you on this example; does it belong to your collection?
You know ... it even looks like the quillons in mine were also originaly straight, having been bent at a certain stage, to please some later owner's tastes.
What do you say of this?

cornelistromp · 2nd November 2010, 07:00 PM

Hi Fernando,

you are welcome.
The Meigen rapier is still in my possession, it has never been separated and has a absolute "sleeper" mint condition and the original grip.
The other rapier is from a trader/collector I know, at the moment I am not into "the rapier" anymore, well I still love to see and handle them but concentrate on earlier swords now, the rusty ones.
The shape of quillons is a matter of personal taste and of course of the type of the fighting school and personal fighting skills.
In Holland the long straight guillons were very popular in the 17thC, actually your type was also very popular in Holland in the first 30 years of the 17thC.
I have seen this sword on some schutter-painting,if I remember where I will post it.

CF. the late 16thC German Rapier with guillons like yours in the plan of the blade for catching/holding your opponents rapier!

best,

fernando · 2nd November 2010, 07:31 PM

Thanks once more, Cornelis, for the new precious info

Quote:

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... I have seen this sword on some schutter-painting,if I remember where I will post it....

Yes, please do; i would love to see it and save it together with my example pictures and data.

Met vriendelijke groeten

Dmitry · 2nd November 2010, 10:28 PM

I told you it was singing to me!

2nd November 2010, 05:55 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Gentlemen for keeping this discussion going on. Interesting to read your honest, though diverse, currents of opinion. Thanks a lot Cornelis, for your input and for the pictures of your beautiful rapier by Clemens. There realy are close similarities between your example and mine. I am rather intrigued that, being the seller of my sword a German, with a significant knowledge of antique weapons, did not hesitate to classify it as an estoc bladed rapier of the Milanese fencing school. However reading your considerations supported by your Clemens example, i am about to digest the possibility of my piece being also German. Herewith a couple close up pictures of the grip wire wrapping, to help try and discern its possible age. . Attached Images

2nd November 2010, 06:15 PM	#3
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Fernando, herewith some pictures that will help you to digest the matter of the pommel and also helps me to confirm the German origin. best regards Attached Images

2nd November 2010, 07:00 PM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Fernando, you are welcome. The Meigen rapier is still in my possession, it has never been separated and has a absolute "sleeper" mint condition and the original grip. The other rapier is from a trader/collector I know, at the moment I am not into "the rapier" anymore, well I still love to see and handle them but concentrate on earlier swords now, the rusty ones. The shape of quillons is a matter of personal taste and of course of the type of the fighting school and personal fighting skills. In Holland the long straight guillons were very popular in the 17thC, actually your type was also very popular in Holland in the first 30 years of the 17thC. I have seen this sword on some schutter-painting,if I remember where I will post it. CF. the late 16thC German Rapier with guillons like yours in the plan of the blade for catching/holding your opponents rapier! best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 2nd November 2010 at 07:30 PM.

2nd November 2010, 04:02 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	In my earlier post I mentioned that there were of course distinct affiliations between Germany and England in the 17th century, and the Hounslow factory was begun with German swordsmiths brought there by invitation by the English king about the time of the English Civil Wars. I agree that the metal used in various components would result in different types and stages of corrosion and wear. As noted, the rewrapping and refurbishing of hilts often accounts for the somewhat composite nature of rapiers typically found. These swords were often reworked as they, like many weapons, often had service life which lasted beyond a single generation. Once again returning to the multinational nature of these components, the shells in the guard, which are as agree of pappenheimer style, in the pierced openwork seem to reflect a quatrefoil shape. While obviously an architectural feature often used widely, it brings to mind ecclesiastical style, and reminds me of that in many English churches. I do hope this suggestion might be considered as I would like to know if the shape of these designs might be relevenant in possible further English origin for this rapier. Best regards, Jim

2nd November 2010, 06:34 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Cornelis, No kidding ... you have just convinced me; this now becoming easy to digest . Some of the details are extremely familiar. What references have you on this example; does it belong to your collection? You know ... it even looks like the quillons in mine were also originaly straight, having been bent at a certain stage, to please some later owner's tastes. What do you say of this?

2nd November 2010, 10:28 PM	#7
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I told you it was singing to me!