Tatar saber for discussion

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 01:20 AM

I attach images of Tamgas of Golden Horde and Lithuanian Tatars

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2005, 02:27 AM

Perkun,
Thank you for noting the Polish title, I had forgotten about that particular resource, a very good one! It is by Jacek Gutowski and published by Res Publica Multiethnica , Warsaw , 1997, ISBN 83-909001-0-6 ( for the benefit of those who would like to find this, it is beautifully illustrated and the text is both in Polish and English).
In this book, concerning tamgas it notes "...only one example of a blade with a Tartar ownership mark is known , this sabre with a Tartar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard isn the Polish Army Museum ". In this book it is illustration #76, and as noted, with the reduced hilt guard.

The tamga reference you have provided the plates from, which work is it?
I only have some data on these from research done over 8 years ago, and was advised of a Russian title, but this is the only one I have heard of that specifically addresses these most interesting markings.

You truly are incredibly lucky to have found this weapon! and it was very kind of you to share it here. Possibly the marks can give us more clues.

All the best,
Jim

Conogre · 19th June 2005, 02:48 AM

A wonderful find.....congratulations!
I often find it interesting that you have western/European swords and ethnographic swords, yet when the specifics become known, the line blurs and so many move from the former to the latter.
Wonderful research and information to go with the sword itself, so well done on all counts, and the reason I keep coming back.
Sometimes this IS the best place for information that's little known elsewhere.
Mike

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 02:54 AM

Jim,
I found the Tamgas on the net:
www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/tradicijos_info3.html

The page cites a 1930's Polish publication by Stanislaw Dziadulewicz entiteled "The Collection of Emblems of Polish Tatar Families";
I assume the plates are form this particular work.

I beleive that with this purchase I have opened up a whole new fixation for myself, now I feel I will be hunting down pieces of Tatar armor and equippment...

Rivkin · 19th June 2005, 04:02 AM

I know of about a dozen of books/monographies about tamgas - tatar, circassian and ancient iranian (scythian, sarmat etc.) tamgas, however they are all in russian or tataric. However if I'm given a tamga I can try to attribute it to family or more likely a tribe.

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 06:29 AM

Rivkin,
I would be very grateful for your help in researching the possible Tamgas.
I attach additional pics.
I don't know if the gold inlay dots on the blade could be tamgas but they are there on both sides of the blade. In one of the plates of tamgas I attached above, there is a tamga in shape of a circle.
I also enhanced the pic. of the spine by tracing over the not so well visible gold inlay there. Please check your references if you could make any sense if it.

Battara · 19th June 2005, 01:41 PM

Perkun, regarding the hilt material, it is actually rayskin (with round noduals) not sharkskin (with triangular noduals).

Nice and complete piece. Thank you for sharing it. Rsword has one, would like to see what he makes of this.

wolviex · 19th June 2005, 04:22 PM

Hi Perkun!

This is really nice example. I wish I had one in my museum, because we have no example of such sabre, amongst many others!

I think that Jim gave you information you needed, anyway my knowledge won't help you much in here, and I just have nothing to add. So please let me one more time admire your sabre -

All the best as ever!

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2005, 04:43 PM

Perkun,
Thank you again for the additional notes on tamgas, and the clearer photos of the markings on the back of the blade. Kirill, thank you for the offer to help with these very obscure, and important markings.

In reviewing material from discussions on the history of tamgas some years back, and pages of material on Caucasian tamgas, the marks on Perkuns sword do not correspond to the illustrated tamgas there, which include quite a few Qipchak examples. The catalog I have was at that point an unpublished manuscript by a well known arms and armour author so I will defer reference unless I can confirm its publication.

The geometric pictograms which are seen in double on the back of the blade somehow do not seem to be tamgas. Unless I am mistaken, doubling or parallel representation seems to occur more on European makers marks or native interpretations of them. However, in Caucasian regions the application in multiples of key markings or symbols does of course occur on blades.
It is known that tamgas were later often incorporated into certain Russian and European heraldic devices with varying degree of accuracy in interpretation. The geometric floral device on the guard and pommel seems to suggest certain heraldic device possibility. Many of the Polish heraldic elements of course seem to derive from possible tamga origins.
Returning to the double 'lazy n' pictogram (well, thats what we'd call it here in Texas!!

, we need more research, but at this point to me it does not seem to represent tamga. Possibly researching tamgas further might reveal such 'double tamgas'.

The gold or brass inlay dot in the blade. It seems that such dots or varying symbolic marks were often placed at strategic locations on blades in India, in the case of this sabre referring to the location at the base of the apparant step in the blade back. It is yet unclear what such symbolism may imply, but the placing does seem strategic, thus some inherent meaning is distinctly possible. Again, it does not seem to be any type of makers mark, but some sort of key symbolic application.

Rick, you rascal!! You have one of these as well ??!!! Any chance we might see it ? It would be great to compare these. I have known of these sabres for a long time from books, but never thought we would have a chance to discuss them from actual examples. Well done guys!!!!!

All the best,
Jim

19th June 2005, 01:20 AM	#1
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	I attach images of Tamgas of Golden Horde and Lithuanian Tatars Attached Images

19th June 2005, 02:54 AM	#4
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Jim, I found the Tamgas on the net: www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/tradicijos_info3.html The page cites a 1930's Polish publication by Stanislaw Dziadulewicz entiteled "The Collection of Emblems of Polish Tatar Families"; I assume the plates are form this particular work. I beleive that with this purchase I have opened up a whole new fixation for myself, now I feel I will be hunting down pieces of Tatar armor and equippment... Last edited by Perkun; 19th June 2005 at 03:05 AM.

19th June 2005, 06:29 AM	#6
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Rivkin, I would be very grateful for your help in researching the possible Tamgas. I attach additional pics. I don't know if the gold inlay dots on the blade could be tamgas but they are there on both sides of the blade. In one of the plates of tamgas I attached above, there is a tamga in shape of a circle. I also enhanced the pic. of the spine by tracing over the not so well visible gold inlay there. Please check your references if you could make any sense if it. Attached Images Last edited by Perkun; 19th June 2005 at 08:13 AM.

19th June 2005, 04:43 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Perkun, Thank you again for the additional notes on tamgas, and the clearer photos of the markings on the back of the blade. Kirill, thank you for the offer to help with these very obscure, and important markings. In reviewing material from discussions on the history of tamgas some years back, and pages of material on Caucasian tamgas, the marks on Perkuns sword do not correspond to the illustrated tamgas there, which include quite a few Qipchak examples. The catalog I have was at that point an unpublished manuscript by a well known arms and armour author so I will defer reference unless I can confirm its publication. The geometric pictograms which are seen in double on the back of the blade somehow do not seem to be tamgas. Unless I am mistaken, doubling or parallel representation seems to occur more on European makers marks or native interpretations of them. However, in Caucasian regions the application in multiples of key markings or symbols does of course occur on blades. It is known that tamgas were later often incorporated into certain Russian and European heraldic devices with varying degree of accuracy in interpretation. The geometric floral device on the guard and pommel seems to suggest certain heraldic device possibility. Many of the Polish heraldic elements of course seem to derive from possible tamga origins. Returning to the double 'lazy n' pictogram (well, thats what we'd call it here in Texas!!, we need more research, but at this point to me it does not seem to represent tamga. Possibly researching tamgas further might reveal such 'double tamgas'. The gold or brass inlay dot in the blade. It seems that such dots or varying symbolic marks were often placed at strategic locations on blades in India, in the case of this sabre referring to the location at the base of the apparant step in the blade back. It is yet unclear what such symbolism may imply, but the placing does seem strategic, thus some inherent meaning is distinctly possible. Again, it does not seem to be any type of makers mark, but some sort of key symbolic application. Rick, you rascal!! You have one of these as well ??!!! Any chance we might see it ? It would be great to compare these. I have known of these sabres for a long time from books, but never thought we would have a chance to discuss them from actual examples. Well done guys!!!!! All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th June 2005 at 04:56 PM.

19th June 2005, 02:27 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Perkun, Thank you for noting the Polish title, I had forgotten about that particular resource, a very good one! It is by Jacek Gutowski and published by Res Publica Multiethnica , Warsaw , 1997, ISBN 83-909001-0-6 ( for the benefit of those who would like to find this, it is beautifully illustrated and the text is both in Polish and English). In this book, concerning tamgas it notes "...only one example of a blade with a Tartar ownership mark is known , this sabre with a Tartar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard isn the Polish Army Museum ". In this book it is illustration #76, and as noted, with the reduced hilt guard. The tamga reference you have provided the plates from, which work is it? I only have some data on these from research done over 8 years ago, and was advised of a Russian title, but this is the only one I have heard of that specifically addresses these most interesting markings. You truly are incredibly lucky to have found this weapon! and it was very kind of you to share it here. Possibly the marks can give us more clues. All the best, Jim

19th June 2005, 02:48 AM	#3
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	A wonderful find.....congratulations! I often find it interesting that you have western/European swords and ethnographic swords, yet when the specifics become known, the line blurs and so many move from the former to the latter. Wonderful research and information to go with the sword itself, so well done on all counts, and the reason I keep coming back. Sometimes this IS the best place for information that's little known elsewhere. Mike

19th June 2005, 04:02 AM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I know of about a dozen of books/monographies about tamgas - tatar, circassian and ancient iranian (scythian, sarmat etc.) tamgas, however they are all in russian or tataric. However if I'm given a tamga I can try to attribute it to family or more likely a tribe.

19th June 2005, 01:41 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Perkun, regarding the hilt material, it is actually rayskin (with round noduals) not sharkskin (with triangular noduals). Nice and complete piece. Thank you for sharing it. Rsword has one, would like to see what he makes of this.

19th June 2005, 04:22 PM	#8
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hi Perkun! This is really nice example. I wish I had one in my museum, because we have no example of such sabre, amongst many others! I think that Jim gave you information you needed, anyway my knowledge won't help you much in here, and I just have nothing to add. So please let me one more time admire your sabre - All the best as ever!