Tatar saber for discussion

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2005, 12:11 AM

This does appear to be an example of a Tatar type sabre of the latter 17th century. While this form originated with the Tatars, it was commonly duplicated in examples made in Lvov by Armenian craftsmen, thus the term commonly misapplied 'ormianka' or the Armenian sabre. King John III Sobieski of Poland favored Eastern fashion thus he is portraited wearing one and a number of them were likely worn by others in his favor, during latter 17th century. In Poland these sabres were termed 'ordynka' (=horde) for thier likely steppes origins, or often 'czeczuga' (=small sturgeon) for the distinctive ray or fishskin grips.

These sabres are beyond incredibly rare! and very little is published on them aside from the data above which is from "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski & Wojciech Bochnak, in Art, Arms & Armour, Vol. I, 1979-80, pp.232-33. Examples are also illustrated in Zygulski (p.242-43) and in "Iranian Swords of 17th c. with Russian Inscriptions in the Collection of State Hermitage Museum" by Yuri Miller (p.138, #150). In the Miller illustrations the hilt form is of this type but mounted with shamshir blade dated 1698. The mounts and hilt on yours seem consistant with the example illustrated in the Ostroski article, and it appears by the photos yours has held up quite well. Is there anything you can divulge on the provenance of this fascinating piece?
Thank you so much for posting it!!!!

All the best
Jim

ham · 19th June 2005, 12:16 AM

As Jim neatly outlines, this does appears to be a latter 17th century Lvov variant of the tatarska type, given the motifs on the mounts and the method of affixing the suspension rings. Any marks on the blade or mounts?

Sincerely,

Ham

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 12:50 AM

Jim,
I got it in Poland. The seller stated it came out of an old collection being sold off by the widow of the collector. I will continue my efforts to get more info on the previous owner as the continuity of the provenance is important to me.

You are right, very little has been written about them. There is another recent very good Polish publication (in Polish and English) "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armour) , (I will look up the publisher and author for you later).
I still cannot beleive my luck.
Because of the shape of the blade and the nature of the decoration I suspect it is of Lwow manufacture, but I don't know enough to make it a definite identification.

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 01:00 AM

Ham,
There are some markings on the spine of the blade (in gold, visible although not well on one of the attached photos). I have not yet examined the saber in person so I don't know if they are owner's Tatar tamgas or maker's marks.

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 01:20 AM

I attach images of Tamgas of Golden Horde and Lithuanian Tatars

Jim McDougall · 19th June 2005, 02:27 AM

Perkun,
Thank you for noting the Polish title, I had forgotten about that particular resource, a very good one! It is by Jacek Gutowski and published by Res Publica Multiethnica , Warsaw , 1997, ISBN 83-909001-0-6 ( for the benefit of those who would like to find this, it is beautifully illustrated and the text is both in Polish and English).
In this book, concerning tamgas it notes "...only one example of a blade with a Tartar ownership mark is known , this sabre with a Tartar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard isn the Polish Army Museum ". In this book it is illustration #76, and as noted, with the reduced hilt guard.

The tamga reference you have provided the plates from, which work is it?
I only have some data on these from research done over 8 years ago, and was advised of a Russian title, but this is the only one I have heard of that specifically addresses these most interesting markings.

You truly are incredibly lucky to have found this weapon! and it was very kind of you to share it here. Possibly the marks can give us more clues.

All the best,
Jim

Conogre · 19th June 2005, 02:48 AM

A wonderful find.....congratulations!
I often find it interesting that you have western/European swords and ethnographic swords, yet when the specifics become known, the line blurs and so many move from the former to the latter.
Wonderful research and information to go with the sword itself, so well done on all counts, and the reason I keep coming back.
Sometimes this IS the best place for information that's little known elsewhere.
Mike

Perkun · 19th June 2005, 02:54 AM

Jim,
I found the Tamgas on the net:
www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/tradicijos_info3.html

The page cites a 1930's Polish publication by Stanislaw Dziadulewicz entiteled "The Collection of Emblems of Polish Tatar Families";
I assume the plates are form this particular work.

I beleive that with this purchase I have opened up a whole new fixation for myself, now I feel I will be hunting down pieces of Tatar armor and equippment...

Rivkin · 19th June 2005, 04:02 AM

I know of about a dozen of books/monographies about tamgas - tatar, circassian and ancient iranian (scythian, sarmat etc.) tamgas, however they are all in russian or tataric. However if I'm given a tamga I can try to attribute it to family or more likely a tribe.

19th June 2005, 01:20 AM	#5
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	I attach images of Tamgas of Golden Horde and Lithuanian Tatars Attached Images

19th June 2005, 02:54 AM	#8
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Jim, I found the Tamgas on the net: www.gaumina.lt/totoriai/english/tradicijos_info3.html The page cites a 1930's Polish publication by Stanislaw Dziadulewicz entiteled "The Collection of Emblems of Polish Tatar Families"; I assume the plates are form this particular work. I beleive that with this purchase I have opened up a whole new fixation for myself, now I feel I will be hunting down pieces of Tatar armor and equippment... Last edited by Perkun; 19th June 2005 at 03:05 AM.

19th June 2005, 12:11 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	This does appear to be an example of a Tatar type sabre of the latter 17th century. While this form originated with the Tatars, it was commonly duplicated in examples made in Lvov by Armenian craftsmen, thus the term commonly misapplied 'ormianka' or the Armenian sabre. King John III Sobieski of Poland favored Eastern fashion thus he is portraited wearing one and a number of them were likely worn by others in his favor, during latter 17th century. In Poland these sabres were termed 'ordynka' (=horde) for thier likely steppes origins, or often 'czeczuga' (=small sturgeon) for the distinctive ray or fishskin grips. These sabres are beyond incredibly rare! and very little is published on them aside from the data above which is from "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski & Wojciech Bochnak, in Art, Arms & Armour, Vol. I, 1979-80, pp.232-33. Examples are also illustrated in Zygulski (p.242-43) and in "Iranian Swords of 17th c. with Russian Inscriptions in the Collection of State Hermitage Museum" by Yuri Miller (p.138, #150). In the Miller illustrations the hilt form is of this type but mounted with shamshir blade dated 1698. The mounts and hilt on yours seem consistant with the example illustrated in the Ostroski article, and it appears by the photos yours has held up quite well. Is there anything you can divulge on the provenance of this fascinating piece? Thank you so much for posting it!!!! All the best Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th June 2005 at 01:55 AM.

19th June 2005, 12:16 AM	#2
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	As Jim neatly outlines, this does appears to be a latter 17th century Lvov variant of the tatarska type, given the motifs on the mounts and the method of affixing the suspension rings. Any marks on the blade or mounts? Sincerely, Ham

19th June 2005, 12:50 AM	#3
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Jim, I got it in Poland. The seller stated it came out of an old collection being sold off by the widow of the collector. I will continue my efforts to get more info on the previous owner as the continuity of the provenance is important to me. You are right, very little has been written about them. There is another recent very good Polish publication (in Polish and English) "Bron i Uzbrojenie Tatarow" (Tatar Arms and Armour) , (I will look up the publisher and author for you later). I still cannot beleive my luck. Because of the shape of the blade and the nature of the decoration I suspect it is of Lwow manufacture, but I don't know enough to make it a definite identification.

19th June 2005, 01:00 AM	#4
Perkun Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 45	Ham, There are some markings on the spine of the blade (in gold, visible although not well on one of the attached photos). I have not yet examined the saber in person so I don't know if they are owner's Tatar tamgas or maker's marks.

19th June 2005, 02:27 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Perkun, Thank you for noting the Polish title, I had forgotten about that particular resource, a very good one! It is by Jacek Gutowski and published by Res Publica Multiethnica , Warsaw , 1997, ISBN 83-909001-0-6 ( for the benefit of those who would like to find this, it is beautifully illustrated and the text is both in Polish and English). In this book, concerning tamgas it notes "...only one example of a blade with a Tartar ownership mark is known , this sabre with a Tartar tamga sign impressed in its scabbard isn the Polish Army Museum ". In this book it is illustration #76, and as noted, with the reduced hilt guard. The tamga reference you have provided the plates from, which work is it? I only have some data on these from research done over 8 years ago, and was advised of a Russian title, but this is the only one I have heard of that specifically addresses these most interesting markings. You truly are incredibly lucky to have found this weapon! and it was very kind of you to share it here. Possibly the marks can give us more clues. All the best, Jim

19th June 2005, 02:48 AM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	A wonderful find.....congratulations! I often find it interesting that you have western/European swords and ethnographic swords, yet when the specifics become known, the line blurs and so many move from the former to the latter. Wonderful research and information to go with the sword itself, so well done on all counts, and the reason I keep coming back. Sometimes this IS the best place for information that's little known elsewhere. Mike

19th June 2005, 04:02 AM	#9
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I know of about a dozen of books/monographies about tamgas - tatar, circassian and ancient iranian (scythian, sarmat etc.) tamgas, however they are all in russian or tataric. However if I'm given a tamga I can try to attribute it to family or more likely a tribe.