Next keris from Polish Museum

nechesh · 18th June 2005, 02:40 PM

Though i don't think it should kill the dicussion on this beautiful keris, i think Marto's arguments are basically correct. I will point out that representative hilts such as the raksasa were produced in Jawa well past the establishment of Islam there. However, i agree that this hilt form in question probably isn't Durga.

Rick · 18th June 2005, 03:13 PM

Now let us talk more about this beautiful almost pristine blade . I think this blade was collected fairly early in its existence . I have been told that the quality of this blade rivals those in other very early European collections .

wolviex · 19th June 2005, 04:32 PM

Thank you marto suwignyo for your reply, especially for your cold logical thinking, which explained some things straight and easy. If there are really no others evidences for this handle so far, I would tend to Rick's proposal and focus on the blade (if there is anything to add). Beside - what do you think about mendak between the blade and handle?

Thank you in advance!

ps. for easy navigation I decided to repeat some of the photos

tuancd · 20th June 2005, 02:47 PM

Hi! everybody

I've been away, sorry to have miss the discussion.
I've read that you have buried Durga in a collective agreement.

I still wanted to show you the two pictures and "argue" a little bit more about what have been said and stated.

First Kerner is not the only one. Sier Jensen present two keris with Durga hulu
(the pictures attached)
the one with stones is before 1618 (date of collection)
the second one collected 1676.

So according what Marto says it could be earlier than 1525...

And Gaspar de Marval (author of "le monde du kriss") talks also about it and has one.

Not to mention your servitor in my article about keris Handles in Kaos n°1.

Now about the fact that it is Durga or not.

Hinduism in java as always been adapting it self from the India Hinduism mixing it with local believes and ancestor traditions. Now It is also true that al statues of Durga have a different "look" from this handle. cf the very good study about Durga (http://www.asianart.com/articles/durga/index.html).
But one statue from the 15th century has only two arms. it come from java east and should be earlier than our handle.

Now if we talk about the veil. Only two goddess have a veil in the Javanese syncretism. Loro Kidul (mostly found in south and East java) and Durga. Nobody will make me believe that it is just a veil to follow Islam rule regarding women (to modern to apply and more over in java). The said goddess wear veil
because they have been stricken by a bad spell or a plague as punishment.

Now about the fingers position. You have two kind of interpretation
first it the Indian Durga image coming from India
illustration n°3
second is the Karana mudra to expel demons and other bad spirits that I have observed on many handles.
illustration n°4

Tim Simmons · 20th June 2005, 06:06 PM

Well done tuancd, this is the only picture I have at home of a Durga statue with two arms, admittedly it is not from Indonesia but the National Museum. Phnom Penh. It is described as Durga, sanctuary 9, northern group, Sambor Prei Kuk, first half of 7th century. Thus illustrating a wide acceptance of a natural representation of Durga in south east Asia at one time. The hand symbol is a fact in Asia

19th June 2005, 04:32 PM	#3
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you marto suwignyo for your reply, especially for your cold logical thinking, which explained some things straight and easy. If there are really no others evidences for this handle so far, I would tend to Rick's proposal and focus on the blade (if there is anything to add). Beside - what do you think about mendak between the blade and handle? Thank you in advance! ps. for easy navigation I decided to repeat some of the photos Attached Images

20th June 2005, 02:47 PM	#4
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Hi! everybody I've been away, sorry to have miss the discussion. I've read that you have buried Durga in a collective agreement. I still wanted to show you the two pictures and "argue" a little bit more about what have been said and stated. First Kerner is not the only one. Sier Jensen present two keris with Durga hulu (the pictures attached) the one with stones is before 1618 (date of collection) the second one collected 1676. So according what Marto says it could be earlier than 1525... And Gaspar de Marval (author of "le monde du kriss") talks also about it and has one. Not to mention your servitor in my article about keris Handles in Kaos n°1. Now about the fact that it is Durga or not. Hinduism in java as always been adapting it self from the India Hinduism mixing it with local believes and ancestor traditions. Now It is also true that al statues of Durga have a different "look" from this handle. cf the very good study about Durga (http://www.asianart.com/articles/durga/index.html). But one statue from the 15th century has only two arms. it come from java east and should be earlier than our handle. Now if we talk about the veil. Only two goddess have a veil in the Javanese syncretism. Loro Kidul (mostly found in south and East java) and Durga. Nobody will make me believe that it is just a veil to follow Islam rule regarding women (to modern to apply and more over in java). The said goddess wear veil because they have been stricken by a bad spell or a plague as punishment. Now about the fingers position. You have two kind of interpretation first it the Indian Durga image coming from India illustration n°3 second is the Karana mudra to expel demons and other bad spirits that I have observed on many handles. illustration n°4 Attached Images Last edited by tuancd; 20th June 2005 at 07:38 PM.

20th June 2005, 06:06 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,854	Well done tuancd, this is the only picture I have at home of a Durga statue with two arms, admittedly it is not from Indonesia but the National Museum. Phnom Penh. It is described as Durga, sanctuary 9, northern group, Sambor Prei Kuk, first half of 7th century. Thus illustrating a wide acceptance of a natural representation of Durga in south east Asia at one time. The hand symbol is a fact in Asia Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 20th June 2005 at 08:52 PM.

18th June 2005, 02:40 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Though i don't think it should kill the dicussion on this beautiful keris, i think Marto's arguments are basically correct. I will point out that representative hilts such as the raksasa were produced in Jawa well past the establishment of Islam there. However, i agree that this hilt form in question probably isn't Durga.

18th June 2005, 03:13 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Now let us talk more about this beautiful almost pristine blade . I think this blade was collected fairly early in its existence . I have been told that the quality of this blade rivals those in other very early European collections .