Templar Sword?

[Marc]

You're far too kind, Jim, as always

Anyway, regarding the templar's attribution and not wanting to interrupt the interesting discussion going on, I think that the things to consider are rather simple:

- Let's check what kind of cross was being used by the Templars at that time at that place, and see if it was exclusive of them.
- Let's check if the cross in the pommel conforms with the typology of said cross.
If it doesn't, is much more probable that the sword belonged to just a good Christian, fearful of God, who wanted a cross in his sword for religious reasons. In the chaotic scenario of a battle, every bit of possible help is always welcome (there's a reason why sailors and soldiers are such a religious bunch, in general. As religious as superstitious, in fact. It tends to happen when you routinely put your life, literally, in the hands of fate).

In short, if we can't clearly say it's Templar (found in a Templar household, for example), with some kind of proof, it probably isn't. Templars were supposed not to adorn their belongings (another thing is how hard was this rule really enforced at that time) and, at the end, even demographically speaking, there were not that many of them, compared with regular knights, no tot mention plain soldiers. Of course, there was a much larger amount of people associated with them (servants, workers, etc...).

Unless the cross is clearly templar, and the templar cross wasn't used by a significant amount of other people at the time, I think the templar's attribution isn't really warranted.
Just my opinion, of course

[Matchlock]

Hi there,

Ottmar, my expert and learned friend on edged weapons, states that the sword in question is in any case some Christian Order's sword, and a very important one too. He cannot explain the meaning of the signs on it, though.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Not at all Marc!
I think that the focus on this cross on the pommel, while compelling, has proven to be more of a distraction than helpful clue, though it has led to some interesting and comprehensive depth to the discussion.

As noted earlier, as we tried to determine exactly who the Templars were as far as the array of monastic and military orders primarily based on these knights, whose name was taken from reference to the original Temple of Solomon in Jerusalem. As has been noted throughout the discussion, the cross itself reflects that the sword probably belonged to an individual of one of these orders, and attempts have been made to determine by the style of the cross, which of the orders it might have been.

According to many resources and thier depictions of variously flourished and shaped crosses, certain styles have been attributed to particular orders and groups. While some can be considered reliably associated or used by the groups named, I am concerned that some of this material might be influenced by 'heraldic license and interpretation' in more recent writing and embellishment of the historical detail.

It has been well noted by Reichsritter that the House of Savoy in North Italy used the silver cross, and suggesting possible association to this sword which was of course found in Italy. However, drawing the relation to the cross and its being a Templar device, plus the fact that it is of silver, cannot conclude that all members, or even any, of the House of Savoy were Templars. It remains an excellent observation however in the process of observing this swords features

Thank you Reichsritter also for the followup in your response as well as for the note on crusaders seals which hopefully will bring more entries.
Also, Thilo, thank you for trying to find the sword with the cross in the pommel and for showing the excellent example despite not the one you were looking for.

Returning to matters at hand, Marcs suggestion of determining which type of cross this might be and aligning with those used by known orders is of course well placed, but the cross here seems as if it has lost some of its detail in the extremities. As we have determined, various crosses were used by the many orders which evolved around the 'Templars' and as Michael's friend has noted, the only thing we can suggest is association to one of the orders, without knowing which.

Again, the strongest supporting denominator is Cesares description of the provenance of the sword, being excavated near a town where Templar preence had been established in the period of this sword by its classification.

It is known, again as previously mentioned, that the cross has been applied to weapons, swords in particular, since the time of Charlemagne, and was well known being applied to scabbards, blades and pommels. It was inherently a protective and talismanic symbol, as well as one of piety and faith, being used widely and not necessarily only by these orders, as well suggested by Marc.
As far as the use of silver, the precious metal, in embellishing a sword pommel with a cross in this sense, I personally do not see this as an element of 'personal adornment' but more reflective of reverence as used in many often seemingly ostentatious religious vestments.

While the idea of the Templars as austere warrior monks seems to be based on thier humble origins as 'The Poor Knights of Christ' as the Templars were originally known, it seems that later more latitude might have become afforded to thier wear, especially toward the sword as the key weapon in the codes of chivalry. It does not seem that a simple cross placed on a pommel, for application as described, and which corresponded to the cross worn on thier mantle, would be considered personal adornment. Just as changes in the equipment worn by these forces were encouraged by the Pope himself, the placement of a cross, in the precious metal worthy of the sword, which was considered in effect a Holy instrument, would seem well placed.

Leaving the focus on the cross on the pommel, I would once more try to look into the markings on the blade, which I have brought up previously and for some reason does not seem to be attracting any interest.

I will express this again to prevent everyone having to have to search through the posts....the III....III with indeterminable marking between is in the same configuration as these type markings on Frankish swords, namely thise marked INGELRII for one, of the 10th century and later. Although this blade seems clearly of 13th century form, why are these markings on this blade, and might there be significant clues in that feature?

Cesare, I really do want to thank you again for bringing this fascinating sword to our forum! and quite honestly, along with the others Im sure, am anxious to see other pieces you are researching.
Might I implore you once again, to give more closeups of the markings to which I have referred?

All very best regards,
Jim