Templar Sword?

[Reichsritter]

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

[Cesare]

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

Hello
It can not be the cross of Savoy.
In 1300 the arms of Savoy was as follows:

[Marc]

Well, didn't the Templar's Rule forbid the use of precious metals in their weapons? It sure did in other objects like the spurs or the horse's bits. There was an original rule (72 articles, quoting from memory, here) that was later expanded, so one should check the right version for this sword's chronology.

Yes, I know I should check myself instead of just firing the question, but I'm a bit short of time as of late, I'm sorry.

Welcome, Cesare. We're glad to have you around

[Atlantia]

Wasn't the Templar cross always red? Wouldn't copper or red-gold have been a better metal to use?
Just a random thought..........

[David]

Jim, of course i'm reading you posts mate. How do you think i find out about all this European stuff?
I have not had time to locate any specific academic reference, but AFAIK Templars did take a vow of poverty (and silver would be wealth) and were strictly forbidden from placing personal adornments on their weapons or armor. Not sure if that extended to the sign of the cross which most certainly appeared on some shields and vestments.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by David

Jim, of course i'm reading you posts mate. How do you think i find out about all this European stuff?
I have not had time to locate any specific academic reference, but AFAIK Templars did take a vow of poverty (and silver would be wealth) and were strictly forbidden from placing personal adornments on their weapons or armor. Not sure if that extended to the sign of the cross which most certainly appeared on some shields and vestments.

My initial thought was that Christian knights of that era must have been festooned with crosses.

Either 'Crusading' or just as a spill over from that 'era', there is an abiding romance image of the Christain knight holding his sword, with its cruciform shape before him and praying, being blessed etc.
The silver cross would be in front of his eyes if he were kneeling and holding the sword in front of him, but if it was a full crucifix on the pommel, it would be upside down when he held the sword aloft, or in opposition to the shape of the sword if it were reversed. Of course the short cross also fits the shape of the circular pommel.
It seems logical to me to have a short cross on the pommel, and silver has been long associated with holyness and purity.
I'm not sure it has to have a secondary association/meaning other than the Christian connection.

[Reichsritter]

Originally Posted by Cesare

Hello
It can not be the cross of Savoy.
In 1300 the arms of Savoy was as follows:

Hi-

The head of the family actually made a crusade on the century you mention, around 15 ships close to 2000 men against the Ottoman. The count was already using the cross on his shield.

Interesting that the early Savoy arms and the Emperor's single headed eagle are almost identical.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

Interesting note there Reichsritter, and would like to hear more on the use of the cross by the House of Savoy. I would imagine this region, even though now part of France, might have been perceived as N. Italy in a geopolitical sense in early times.

As Norman has well described, the use of the cross in many temporal perceptions as a symbol or device on material culture including weapons by no means seems isolated nor indicative of a certain family or group. As far as I can see the styles of cross or certain characteristics in thier imaging is more likely the product of heraldic interpretation and in degree artistic license from later periods. Obviously examples used in iconography such as tomb art and period artistic images can lend well to presuming a style associated with certain groups, but we must realize that these are based on the artists perception in large degree.

I really dont know that trying to determine the style of cross here is likely to tell us more on the group or individual characteristic of its owner, simply that the sword received an embellishment well established in practice in these times.

Thilo, very good note on the cross used by the Tuetonic Knights also. It does seem that the colors involved in mantles and crosses was pertinant, and the note on using metals in accord was well placed. I believe there are examples where these crosses were embellished on sword hilts in enamel, but few examples have survived with that adornment intact, especially excavated examples. Again, I believe that use of precious metal such as silver as used here, would have been seen as reverently placed, and perhaps more durable in use. Many swords do have such markings inlaid with latten (copper alloy inlay) but there does not seem to be a color oriented reason for the use.

Reichsritter, it really would be interesting as I mentioned on the Savoy use of the cross. Are there sword hilt examples?

All the best,
Jim

[mrwizard]

I knew i had a very similar discussion like this a few month ago about the cross on the pommel of a falchion also dated at about 1300. Sadly, i didn't remember where it was... until now. Turns out the cross on the falchion is quite different from the cross on the sword currently under discussion.

Nevertheless, as i spent some time searching for it, i will
put the link here for further reference:
http://www.historische-waffenkunde.de/datenbank.htm

Best Regards,
Thilo

[Reichsritter]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Reichsritter, it really would be interesting as I mentioned on the Savoy use of the cross. Are there sword hilt examples?

All the best,
Jim

Hi Jim,

No hilt examples that I can show....it's Cesare given data on the sword that I have shared my thoughts. Several variety of crosses in arms was mostly found on the western part of the Mediterrenean, even as far as Barcelona. Of course these were transit points of Crusaders and Knights(each has it's own Patron Saints with distinguishing cross). The only thing I noticed is..only this north Italian family uses a silver cross.

[Reichsritter]

If anybody here has a collection of images of the crusaders seal, I think it's worth looking. I have seen very similar type of swords on the seals, sorry I cannot post pics since I am far from home.