Help with Identification please

Sajen · 5th October 2010, 01:32 AM

If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress.

Maybe I have understand something wrong ( please have in mind that english isn't my native language) but in my understanding (what I have learned, read and have been told) have a Gana hilt a other role than only to complete the dress. But I might be wrong by this.

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 01:57 AM

Detlef, you have possibly heard and read the same, or similar things to those that I have heard and read. However, I have the character defect that I do not believe everything I read or am told. I want a lot more than somebody's personal, or group, belief that something is so. Most particularly where keris beliefs come into play, I want a lot more than 20th. century Javanese belief, or imaginative hypotheses constructed to suit a personal hobby horse.

All the ideas and stories are interesting, and in the right context can provide the foundations for congenial conversation. But after the conversation is finished, nothing has been substantiated, and all the big questions are still left standing with no supported answers.

There are at least two ways that we can approach the subject that Cedric has raised:- we can pull out all our interesting stories and ideas, or we can attempt to provide solid, supported answers. I've probably heard most of the interesting stories, so these don't hold much interest for me, but I would really appreciate some solid supportable answers, because in spite of a great deal of searching, I have yet to find these answers.

Sajen · 5th October 2010, 02:06 AM

Understand and taken!

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 02:18 AM

As an after thought, I feel it might be helpful, Detlef, if you were to define exactly what you consider to be a "gana" hilt.

Bearing in mind the several quite different meanings of the word "gana" in Modern Javanese, the meaning in Old Javanese, and the meaning according to the Hindu belief system, plus the fact that I have never heard this word used in Central Jawa as a descriptor for a keris hilt type, I am just a little curious as to exactly what you, and some other people regard as the essential characteristics of a gana hilt, and why.

Exactly where do we first find the term "gana hilt" used to refer to a Javanese hilt form ?

Sajen · 5th October 2010, 02:27 AM

Since it is in Germany already early morning i will think about and will try to answer later. BTW, I don't know the translation of the javanese word gana.

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 02:52 AM

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

Sajen · 6th October 2010, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Thanks Detlef.

In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha).

In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military.

In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas).

See how confusing these things can become?

Hello Alan,

the red marked is what I understand before by the word gana. My understanding of a gana hilt is a natural grown piece wood (or other material, for example akar bahar) which use the natural knots without a lot of carving to show an anthropomorphic figure. And it is told in many books (of course without any proof) that handles like this have a function as jimat.

Kind regards,

Detlef

David · 5th October 2010, 04:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Detlef, you have possibly heard and read the same, or similar things to those that I have heard and read. However, I have the character defect that I do not believe everything I read or am told. I want a lot more than somebody's personal, or group, belief that something is so. Most particularly where keris beliefs come into play, I want a lot more than 20th. century Javanese belief, or imaginative hypotheses constructed to suit a personal hobby horse.

All the ideas and stories are interesting, and in the right context can provide the foundations for congenial conversation. But after the conversation is finished, nothing has been substantiated, and all the big questions are still left standing with no supported answers.

There are at least two ways that we can approach the subject that Cedric has raised:- we can pull out all our interesting stories and ideas, or we can attempt to provide solid, supported answers. I've probably heard most of the interesting stories, so these don't hold much interest for me, but I would really appreciate some solid supportable answers, because in spite of a great deal of searching, I have yet to find these answers.

Frankly Alan, while i quite understand your position here, many of us do not personally have your experience or access to all the "ideas and stories" in regards to this question. Ideas and stories can be more than a foundation for congenial conversation. They can sometimes feed hypothesis or spark theories and can lead us on to further discovery. Then sometimes they just lead us only to dead ends. But i see no reason to quash discussion here simply because the answers might remain unsubstantiated or because you have already heard all the stories. My only disclaimer here is that when we speak from a place of folklore it cannot be held up as absolute fact. It is what it is and must be examined and valued as such. But i think at this point we are probably all aware that there are many aspects of the keris that will always remain somewhat unsubstantiated to some extent.

A. G. Maisey · 5th October 2010, 05:43 AM

David, I am not attempting to quash discussion.

If there is a group consensus that the ideas, stories and unsubstantiated hypotheses are a valuable contribution to keris knowledge, then by all means let those who consider this to be so bring forth those ideas and stories.

Personally I feel that there are already far too many fairy stories about the keris floating around. We can call these fairy stories folk tales, or myths, or legends but they do not bring us any closer to an answer to Cedric's question. Had his question been phrased differently, we may have had room to move and we could dragged out all the quaint and interesting yarns we've heard and entertained one another with them, but that was not what Cedric asked for:-

"--- the relation between the handle and the blade. ---
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?"

and then following my prompt, he specified a time and place.

An opinion is a view or judgement that one has formed about something.

It can be an informed opinion, in which case we should be able to substantiate it, or it can be an uninformed opinion, when we are unable to substantiate it.

I have little time for unsubstantiated opinion. I do have several "good ideas" in relation to the form and cultural significance of keris hilts, but at present I cannot produce support for these "good ideas" so they will remain unstated. If I ever do state them, they will be stated with some semblance of logical supporting evidence.

But that's only me, if others wish to present unsubstantiated opinion that is always their prerogative.

In the terms of Cedric's question, I am unable to present him with an opinion which I can support.

I repeat:-

I am not attempting to quash discussion.

In fact I have already provided a couple of questions which , in light of past experience, should generate discussion. Who knows, we might even get a replay of the beautiful Durga hilt discussions.

5th October 2010, 01:32 AM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	If we consider the hilt of the keris in Islamic Jawa, I would suggest that the hilt has no role other than to complete the dress. Maybe I have understand something wrong ( please have in mind that english isn't my native language) but in my understanding (what I have learned, read and have been told) have a Gana hilt a other role than only to complete the dress. But I might be wrong by this.

5th October 2010, 01:57 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Detlef, you have possibly heard and read the same, or similar things to those that I have heard and read. However, I have the character defect that I do not believe everything I read or am told. I want a lot more than somebody's personal, or group, belief that something is so. Most particularly where keris beliefs come into play, I want a lot more than 20th. century Javanese belief, or imaginative hypotheses constructed to suit a personal hobby horse. All the ideas and stories are interesting, and in the right context can provide the foundations for congenial conversation. But after the conversation is finished, nothing has been substantiated, and all the big questions are still left standing with no supported answers. There are at least two ways that we can approach the subject that Cedric has raised:- we can pull out all our interesting stories and ideas, or we can attempt to provide solid, supported answers. I've probably heard most of the interesting stories, so these don't hold much interest for me, but I would really appreciate some solid supportable answers, because in spite of a great deal of searching, I have yet to find these answers.

5th October 2010, 02:06 AM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Understand and taken!

5th October 2010, 02:18 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	As an after thought, I feel it might be helpful, Detlef, if you were to define exactly what you consider to be a "gana" hilt. Bearing in mind the several quite different meanings of the word "gana" in Modern Javanese, the meaning in Old Javanese, and the meaning according to the Hindu belief system, plus the fact that I have never heard this word used in Central Jawa as a descriptor for a keris hilt type, I am just a little curious as to exactly what you, and some other people regard as the essential characteristics of a gana hilt, and why. Exactly where do we first find the term "gana hilt" used to refer to a Javanese hilt form ?

5th October 2010, 02:27 AM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,207	Since it is in Germany already early morning i will think about and will try to answer later. BTW, I don't know the translation of the javanese word gana.

5th October 2010, 02:52 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Thanks Detlef. In Modern Javanese 'gana' has a number of meanings:- a share of property, something in the form of something, a fetus, a bee, larva, pupa, a cloud, a little statue of a living thing, a god with an elephant head (Ganesha). In Old Javanese it can mean a group, or friends, or helpers, or a group of minor deities, or Ganesha himself, or a division of the military. In formal Hindu belief "gana" also has a number of meanings, but usually it is an abbreviation of "gana- devatas'' which can be understood as "troops of deities", that is, deities who usually appear as classes of deities who attend Siwa and are under the command of Ganesha, thus the connection of Ganesha:Ganapati:Gana (Ganapati=Lord of the Ganas). See how confusing these things can become?

5th October 2010, 05:43 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	David, I am not attempting to quash discussion. If there is a group consensus that the ideas, stories and unsubstantiated hypotheses are a valuable contribution to keris knowledge, then by all means let those who consider this to be so bring forth those ideas and stories. Personally I feel that there are already far too many fairy stories about the keris floating around. We can call these fairy stories folk tales, or myths, or legends but they do not bring us any closer to an answer to Cedric's question. Had his question been phrased differently, we may have had room to move and we could dragged out all the quaint and interesting yarns we've heard and entertained one another with them, but that was not what Cedric asked for:- "--- the relation between the handle and the blade. --- Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?" and then following my prompt, he specified a time and place. An opinion is a view or judgement that one has formed about something. It can be an informed opinion, in which case we should be able to substantiate it, or it can be an uninformed opinion, when we are unable to substantiate it. I have little time for unsubstantiated opinion. I do have several "good ideas" in relation to the form and cultural significance of keris hilts, but at present I cannot produce support for these "good ideas" so they will remain unstated. If I ever do state them, they will be stated with some semblance of logical supporting evidence. But that's only me, if others wish to present unsubstantiated opinion that is always their prerogative. In the terms of Cedric's question, I am unable to present him with an opinion which I can support. I repeat:- I am not attempting to quash discussion. In fact I have already provided a couple of questions which , in light of past experience, should generate discussion. Who knows, we might even get a replay of the beautiful Durga hilt discussions.