Help with Identification please

A. G. Maisey · 28th September 2010, 11:32 PM

As to pouring the juice in and out of containers, I feel it is neither positive nor negative. I use wall paper troughs to clean in, and just leave the juice there until the job is done, if the fungus forms on top I just scoop it off and throw it away.

The hard rust in the joint between blade and gonjo will very probably never go, the only truly effective way to fix this is to remove the gonjo, clean the joint area, and reset the gonjo with epoxy resin mixed with iron filings in between blade and gonjo. This has been the preferred method of blade preservation with very old blades since epoxy resin became available, and it prevents further deterioration. I would not suggest that you did this, it is a job for somebody with the necessary skills and experience.

However I do strongly suggest that you use a sharp tool to pick the rust out from between blade and gonjo --- this does not need to be a perfect clean up job, just get the worst of it off the top --- and also all over the blade in the the pits and pockets where it will appear. I use a three sided file ground to a radiused point, a small pocket knife, and a saddlers awl to do this mechanical cleaning. I use a 2.5X machinists loupe during this mechanical cleaning process.

By the look of this blade you will probably get an acceptable result straight from the pineapple juice. After you think that you have it about as clean as you can get it, give it a final soak in the pineapple juice, then just rinse thoroughly and dry thoroughly, spray with WD40 and allow to drain over night. It won't be a perfect stain job, but it will be OK, and it will avoid the necessity for arsenic, and the difficult part of the process.

imas560 · 29th September 2010, 09:51 PM

Took the keris blade from the juice

imas560 · 29th September 2010, 09:55 PM

Scrubbed under running water, the blade pattern (pamor?) really starting to show and under light...so is the rust. I had a go at a small bit of rust and required a bit of work to remove. Will soak and scrub for another couple of days before getting in to the rust removal on the weekend.

A. G. Maisey · 29th September 2010, 11:47 PM

You do not do the rust picking away in one big slap.

You do it every time you take the blade out of the juice.

Once you remove a speck of rust, it will probably show again several times after you take the blade from the juice, so you clean it off every time you take the blade out of the juice and rinse and brush it. Eventually the rust no longer appears.

The process only takes a few minutes, its no big deal.

cedric Le Dauphin · 3rd October 2010, 11:43 AM

Hi everyone

I know I drop in a little late in the conversation, but it took me a while to through all the posting

Some of the forum mates know that I love keris and that my favourite subject is keris handles.

I don't want to blow on the ashes, but please do not immerge handles in boiling waters. It’s a waste. That is understood and the subject seems to gather everybody approving.

But something aroused in my mind that hasn't been mentioned in this posting.

Alan talked, very well by the way, about the isi, yoni, and digdaya.
Such things, that I believe in, are rarely talk and I understand it.
But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. I know that the Malaysians don't give the same importance to the blade and to the handle (except in some rare cases and in the patan influenced area) but I would like to hear of the other keris lovers and pengukir.
Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade?

Regards, Cedric

A. G. Maisey · 3rd October 2010, 10:11 PM

That is a thoughtful question Cedric, however, I feel that if meaningful discussion is to flow from your question, you need to narrow the focus a little and define the geographic location, and the period, to which you wish the question to apply.

In other words:- where and when?

PenangsangII · 4th October 2010, 11:41 AM

Dear Cedric,

Actually Malaysians also put same importance to the keris hilts though not as much as the blade. Then again, it all depends on why we collect keris in the first place? If the purpose is "isian", then of course the way the collector's concerned perspective would vary, say compare to those collecting keris for the sake of the love of artistic objects. This also may vary depending on personal experience, gurus (if any) and peers.

Some of the Malaysian keris philosophy was adopted from the Bugis perspective, where not too long ago (even in 20th C), keris handls are attached to the blades permanently using traditional resins (mixture of damar, kemenyan, melati flower and a needle). This mixture has everything to do with esoteric requirement, and handles fixed like this, according to Bugis tradition, are not to be removed if the pamossa (isian?/yoni?/power etc..) is to be retained. Even when the keris is due to cleaning (Muharram /Maulud /Hari Raya Haji), only the blade is to be immersed in the cleaning solution. The hilt (and the watingan) is to be let dry.

As I also collect Bugis and pattani pieces beside Jawanese, I treat them according to the keris's origins... for a Bugis keris, I treat it like a Bugis would, and that also goes to the Pattani and Jawanese pieces.

29th September 2010, 09:51 PM	#2
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Second Wash Took the keris blade from the juice

29th September 2010, 09:55 PM	#3
imas560 Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 180	Second Wash Part 2 Scrubbed under running water, the blade pattern (pamor?) really starting to show and under light...so is the rust. I had a go at a small bit of rust and required a bit of work to remove. Will soak and scrub for another couple of days before getting in to the rust removal on the weekend.

28th September 2010, 11:32 PM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	As to pouring the juice in and out of containers, I feel it is neither positive nor negative. I use wall paper troughs to clean in, and just leave the juice there until the job is done, if the fungus forms on top I just scoop it off and throw it away. The hard rust in the joint between blade and gonjo will very probably never go, the only truly effective way to fix this is to remove the gonjo, clean the joint area, and reset the gonjo with epoxy resin mixed with iron filings in between blade and gonjo. This has been the preferred method of blade preservation with very old blades since epoxy resin became available, and it prevents further deterioration. I would not suggest that you did this, it is a job for somebody with the necessary skills and experience. However I do strongly suggest that you use a sharp tool to pick the rust out from between blade and gonjo --- this does not need to be a perfect clean up job, just get the worst of it off the top --- and also all over the blade in the the pits and pockets where it will appear. I use a three sided file ground to a radiused point, a small pocket knife, and a saddlers awl to do this mechanical cleaning. I use a 2.5X machinists loupe during this mechanical cleaning process. By the look of this blade you will probably get an acceptable result straight from the pineapple juice. After you think that you have it about as clean as you can get it, give it a final soak in the pineapple juice, then just rinse thoroughly and dry thoroughly, spray with WD40 and allow to drain over night. It won't be a perfect stain job, but it will be OK, and it will avoid the necessity for arsenic, and the difficult part of the process.

29th September 2010, 11:47 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	You do not do the rust picking away in one big slap. You do it every time you take the blade out of the juice. Once you remove a speck of rust, it will probably show again several times after you take the blade from the juice, so you clean it off every time you take the blade out of the juice and rinse and brush it. Eventually the rust no longer appears. The process only takes a few minutes, its no big deal.

3rd October 2010, 11:43 AM	#5
cedric Le Dauphin Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Paris Posts: 39	Hi everyone I know I drop in a little late in the conversation, but it took me a while to through all the posting Some of the forum mates know that I love keris and that my favourite subject is keris handles. I don't want to blow on the ashes, but please do not immerge handles in boiling waters. It’s a waste. That is understood and the subject seems to gather everybody approving. But something aroused in my mind that hasn't been mentioned in this posting. Alan talked, very well by the way, about the isi, yoni, and digdaya. Such things, that I believe in, are rarely talk and I understand it. But nobody ever mention the relation between the handle and the blade. I know that the Malaysians don't give the same importance to the blade and to the handle (except in some rare cases and in the patan influenced area) but I would like to hear of the other keris lovers and pengukir. Does anybody think that the handle is anything more than just a grip to handle the blade, and is there any opinion on the role of the handle on guarding or protecting the recipient faculty of the keris blade? Regards, Cedric

3rd October 2010, 10:11 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	That is a thoughtful question Cedric, however, I feel that if meaningful discussion is to flow from your question, you need to narrow the focus a little and define the geographic location, and the period, to which you wish the question to apply. In other words:- where and when?

4th October 2010, 11:41 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear Cedric, Actually Malaysians also put same importance to the keris hilts though not as much as the blade. Then again, it all depends on why we collect keris in the first place? If the purpose is "isian", then of course the way the collector's concerned perspective would vary, say compare to those collecting keris for the sake of the love of artistic objects. This also may vary depending on personal experience, gurus (if any) and peers. Some of the Malaysian keris philosophy was adopted from the Bugis perspective, where not too long ago (even in 20th C), keris handls are attached to the blades permanently using traditional resins (mixture of damar, kemenyan, melati flower and a needle). This mixture has everything to do with esoteric requirement, and handles fixed like this, according to Bugis tradition, are not to be removed if the pamossa (isian?/yoni?/power etc..) is to be retained. Even when the keris is due to cleaning (Muharram /Maulud /Hari Raya Haji), only the blade is to be immersed in the cleaning solution. The hilt (and the watingan) is to be let dry. As I also collect Bugis and pattani pieces beside Jawanese, I treat them according to the keris's origins... for a Bugis keris, I treat it like a Bugis would, and that also goes to the Pattani and Jawanese pieces.