Bugis Chieftain's Keris: does it exist? - Page 2

Battara · 20th September 2010, 05:58 PM

Thank you. Helpful. But what then makes for a chieftain's blade?

khalifah muda · 21st September 2010, 03:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you. Helpful. But what then makes for a chieftain's blade?

To my experience, it should be a thick, stoud, a medium length, slender and very close luks.

Battara · 23rd September 2010, 02:12 AM

Very helpful, thank you. Is it possible to not have luks at all but be a straight blade?

khalifah muda · 23rd September 2010, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Very helpful, thank you. Is it possible to not have luks at all but be a straight blade?

It is possible but not seen so far. Luks represent certain status for individuals. For 'Chieftain', which means 'Penghulu' in Bahasa, is a man of status, sure there's luk.

Battara · 27th September 2010, 04:28 AM

Thank you for answering my question. Again, there is little information in the books about this subject.

Moshah · 29th September 2010, 02:09 PM

If penghulu keris must have luks, should it be of any numbers or a specific number of luks to be had there?

khalifah muda · 14th October 2010, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

If penghulu keris must have luks, should it be of any numbers or a specific number of luks to be had there?

Seen before, 5, 7 & 9.

Moshah · 21st October 2010, 04:53 AM

Yeah I've seen few with differ luk numbers, but I also heard that the real one should be of 7 luks, nothing more or less than that.

I can only speculate, but if the cheiftain keris do exist, there should be more specific standardization of the blade as much as the dress itself. Even though it is not a royal keris, but still it should be addressing some kind of status, hence the differences as compared to normal kerises, wouldn't they?

khalifah muda · 28th November 2013, 10:27 AM

Another example in my possesion.

A. G. Maisey · 28th November 2013, 01:23 PM

and I have its brother

henri · 28th November 2013, 10:27 PM

My last buy of what some call " chieftain keris " . Some restoration made to this keris bought in very poor condition ( silver features ) and tried to clean and rejuvenate the faded goldish flowers painted on the scabbard . Blade is 99 % original to scabbard .

Jean · 29th November 2013, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khalifah muda

Another example in my possesion.

Very nice piece, congratuations! What is the hilt materials? (looks like marine ivory but which type?).
Would this blade qualify for a Chieftain kris? It is 33.5 cm long and housed in a standard Bugis sheath from Sulawesi (the tip was damaged and replaced).
Regards

Jean · 2nd December 2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henri

My last buy of what some call " chieftain keris " . Some restoration made to this keris bought in very poor condition ( silver features ) and tried to clean and rejuvenate the faded goldish flowers painted on the scabbard . Blade is 99 % original to scabbard .

Hello Henri,
Excellent piece also with original sheath and very nice hilt but this Bugis blade seems of standard proportions as compared to the criterias defined by Khalifah Muda? (thick, stout, slender and very close luks).
Regards

David · 2nd December 2013, 04:44 PM

A lot of nice examples going up, but frankly i'm not convinced that we are any closer to answering José's initial question. Certainly a form of dress exists which collectors at least have seen fit to tag as "chieftain" keris. I have seen a couple of posts that begin "i have heard" or some other unsubstantiated claim, but nothing that nails down that a keris of a certain width with 7 luks in one of these fat, wide sheaths is definitely a "chieftain" keris and not simply that of a wealthy merchant or man of means.

Jean · 2nd December 2013, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

A lot of nice examples going up, but frankly i'm not convinced that we are any closer to answering José's initial question. Certainly a form of dress exists which collectors at least have seen fit to tag as "chieftain" keris. I have seen a couple of posts that begin "i have heard" or some other unsubstantiated claim, but nothing that nails down that a keris of a certain width with 7 luks in one of these fat, wide sheaths is definitely a "chieftain" keris and not simply that of a wealthy merchant or man of means.

Hello David,
At least there are 2 partial and reasonably accurate replies to Jose's question:
1. These "chieftain" krisses exist and a representative specimen is shown in post # 26.
2. I concur with Alam Shah and others that these krisses are not indigenous to Sulawesi/ Sumbawa but probably from the Peninsula (but which area?) and possibly the Riau islands. From memory I never saw any specimen in Indonesia even in the museums, and they are not mentioned in the recent book about Bugis Sulawesi weapons.
Regarding the blades features and by whom were they worn, I don't know.
Regards

David · 3rd December 2013, 12:32 AM

Well Jean, of course they exist, we have all seen these examples before. Their existence is not what is actually in question here. But just because we assign them to the ownership of "chieftains" doesn't make it so. What i would like to see is photographic evidence of acknowledged chieftains with these keris in their possession or perhaps images of obviously non-chieftain types (perhaps just well off merchants or people of other status) with them. Who first began calling these "chieftain" keris and when? If indeed this type of ensemble was held by certain Bugis chieftains in a particular part of the Indonesian archipelago, were they the only ones permitted to wear such dress or could anyone who could afford such an ensemble own one?
Your second reply was not part of José's initial question, but certainly it brings us a little closer to the origin of these keris if by nothing else the process of elimination.

Battara · 3rd December 2013, 01:13 AM

Here, here, David, here, here!

28th November 2013, 10:27 AM	#39
khalifah muda Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Singapore Posts: 54	Another Chieftain Another example in my possesion. Attached Images

28th November 2013, 10:27 PM	#41
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	My last buy of what some call " chieftain keris " . Some restoration made to this keris bought in very poor condition ( silver features ) and tried to clean and rejuvenate the faded goldish flowers painted on the scabbard . Blade is 99 % original to scabbard . Attached Images

20th September 2010, 05:58 PM	#31
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Thank you. Helpful. But what then makes for a chieftain's blade?

23rd September 2010, 02:12 AM	#33
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Very helpful, thank you. Is it possible to not have luks at all but be a straight blade?

27th September 2010, 04:28 AM	#35
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Thank you for answering my question. Again, there is little information in the books about this subject.

29th September 2010, 02:09 PM	#36
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	If penghulu keris must have luks, should it be of any numbers or a specific number of luks to be had there?

21st October 2010, 04:53 AM	#38
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Yeah I've seen few with differ luk numbers, but I also heard that the real one should be of 7 luks, nothing more or less than that. I can only speculate, but if the cheiftain keris do exist, there should be more specific standardization of the blade as much as the dress itself. Even though it is not a royal keris, but still it should be addressing some kind of status, hence the differences as compared to normal kerises, wouldn't they?

28th November 2013, 01:23 PM	#40
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	and I have its brother

2nd December 2013, 04:44 PM	#44
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	A lot of nice examples going up, but frankly i'm not convinced that we are any closer to answering José's initial question. Certainly a form of dress exists which collectors at least have seen fit to tag as "chieftain" keris. I have seen a couple of posts that begin "i have heard" or some other unsubstantiated claim, but nothing that nails down that a keris of a certain width with 7 luks in one of these fat, wide sheaths is definitely a "chieftain" keris and not simply that of a wealthy merchant or man of means.

3rd December 2013, 12:32 AM	#46
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Well Jean, of course they exist, we have all seen these examples before. Their existence is not what is actually in question here. But just because we assign them to the ownership of "chieftains" doesn't make it so. What i would like to see is photographic evidence of acknowledged chieftains with these keris in their possession or perhaps images of obviously non-chieftain types (perhaps just well off merchants or people of other status) with them. Who first began calling these "chieftain" keris and when? If indeed this type of ensemble was held by certain Bugis chieftains in a particular part of the Indonesian archipelago, were they the only ones permitted to wear such dress or could anyone who could afford such an ensemble own one? Your second reply was not part of José's initial question, but certainly it brings us a little closer to the origin of these keris if by nothing else the process of elimination.

3rd December 2013, 01:13 AM	#47
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Here, here, David, here, here!