Naval sword- opinions,please

Andrew · 14th June 2005, 03:43 AM

Mark, we finally got some clear weather yesterday, and I took some shots of my sword. I noticed something interesting at the forte, but will start a new thread about that so as not to hijack yours.

tom hyle · 14th June 2005, 12:25 PM

That edgewise pin is fairly interesting, too; you didn't really tell us about that before, I think?
Those ebay pics are deceptive; it really looks like a swelled tip.
Is the hilt all-metal? What metal? Is it one piece? The hole in the bowl amost looks as if it goes right to the edge of the blade or even of the tang? Commentary? Explanation? Possible driver of the brazing? The way the brass is puffed up so far above the joint suggests it was dropped on/in, whether from a ladel, or a rod; not placed solid then melted in place after the nature of traditional brazing.
BTW, I don't neccessarily think it is one (though with the tip not being swelled....), but the wedge section is not unseen on European swords. It is in fact sometimes seen, most notably on hangers.

M ELEY · 17th June 2005, 08:44 AM

Andrew, you are right about the similarity in the blades, especially with the pitting (I wonder if yours might not have seen sea service to be pitted in this way- salt air and all. I still believe that mine has a European blade, though...

M ELEY · 17th June 2005, 09:02 AM

Tom, sorry to take so long to get back to this thread. I've been doing research via Gilkerson's book "Borders Away" and Annis' "Naval Swords" and I'm still convinced that my sword is the real deal- that is, a private purchase cutlass for a merchantman ship, possibly ca 1800-20. These swords came in all shapes,sizes. Many were crude, having been repaired in the field, refitted, resharpened, painted with pitch, etc.
Now-about the sword. The iron grip fits the patterns of 1800-20, the rouned dish guard is cruder than the ebay pic lets on (i.e. I doubt its machine-made). The diamond-cut to the hilt does go right uo to the blade edge. The whole hilt construction is odd/unique, as most of these had a separate grip with piened tang where the sheet guard comes into it. This hilt appears to be constructed as a whole, with the grip/guard/bowl all as one piece (the only other possibility is that it,too, is welded with brass, but if it is, it is lost under many layers of old marine pitch/paint of the era). If this is the construction of the hilt(whole), then I suppose that the blade might have been slid in place and brazed with brass to hold it firm. I believe that the blade is European and of the period. Interesting items, these private purchase sea swords...kind of ethnogrphic in their variety!

M ELEY · 18th June 2005, 09:13 PM

Tom, I know you know much about construction and smithing of weapons. It does appear that the hilt on this sea sword was slid into a constructed hilt and then brass poured into the socket to secure it. Have you ever heard of this process being done? Time period and/or country of origin? Just read in Annis' book that many sea swords were made from brass, as it doesn't corrode nearly as fast as traditional iron does (the reason so many naval swords were painted with pitch- glad they chose black paint BTW. Can you imagine if some joker decided on pink!), so perhaps that's why this is the reasoning behind the construction of the joint...

not2sharp · 18th June 2005, 10:36 PM

This looks like an 18th century American Sabre. There is an example shown with a very similar blade on plate #269 of Arms and Armour of Colonial America, Harold Peterson. Also, plate #256 has examples with similar hilts.

n2s

M ELEY · 19th June 2005, 02:54 AM

Thanks, n2s. That was my feeling as well, but I wasn't too sure. I still don't have Peterson's book...I'll have to check out a copy via library loan. Thanks for responding. BTW, if it truly is American colonial, I'll be quite pleased!!

18th June 2005, 09:13 PM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Tom Hyle- a question Tom, I know you know much about construction and smithing of weapons. It does appear that the hilt on this sea sword was slid into a constructed hilt and then brass poured into the socket to secure it. Have you ever heard of this process being done? Time period and/or country of origin? Just read in Annis' book that many sea swords were made from brass, as it doesn't corrode nearly as fast as traditional iron does (the reason so many naval swords were painted with pitch- glad they chose black paint BTW. Can you imagine if some joker decided on pink!), so perhaps that's why this is the reasoning behind the construction of the joint...

14th June 2005, 03:43 AM	#1
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Mark, we finally got some clear weather yesterday, and I took some shots of my sword. I noticed something interesting at the forte, but will start a new thread about that so as not to hijack yours.

14th June 2005, 12:25 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	That edgewise pin is fairly interesting, too; you didn't really tell us about that before, I think? Those ebay pics are deceptive; it really looks like a swelled tip. Is the hilt all-metal? What metal? Is it one piece? The hole in the bowl amost looks as if it goes right to the edge of the blade or even of the tang? Commentary? Explanation? Possible driver of the brazing? The way the brass is puffed up so far above the joint suggests it was dropped on/in, whether from a ladel, or a rod; not placed solid then melted in place after the nature of traditional brazing. BTW, I don't neccessarily think it is one (though with the tip not being swelled....), but the wedge section is not unseen on European swords. It is in fact sometimes seen, most notably on hangers.

17th June 2005, 08:44 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Andrew, you are right about the similarity in the blades, especially with the pitting (I wonder if yours might not have seen sea service to be pitted in this way- salt air and all. I still believe that mine has a European blade, though...

17th June 2005, 09:02 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Tom, sorry to take so long to get back to this thread. I've been doing research via Gilkerson's book "Borders Away" and Annis' "Naval Swords" and I'm still convinced that my sword is the real deal- that is, a private purchase cutlass for a merchantman ship, possibly ca 1800-20. These swords came in all shapes,sizes. Many were crude, having been repaired in the field, refitted, resharpened, painted with pitch, etc. Now-about the sword. The iron grip fits the patterns of 1800-20, the rouned dish guard is cruder than the ebay pic lets on (i.e. I doubt its machine-made). The diamond-cut to the hilt does go right uo to the blade edge. The whole hilt construction is odd/unique, as most of these had a separate grip with piened tang where the sheet guard comes into it. This hilt appears to be constructed as a whole, with the grip/guard/bowl all as one piece (the only other possibility is that it,too, is welded with brass, but if it is, it is lost under many layers of old marine pitch/paint of the era). If this is the construction of the hilt(whole), then I suppose that the blade might have been slid in place and brazed with brass to hold it firm. I believe that the blade is European and of the period. Interesting items, these private purchase sea swords...kind of ethnogrphic in their variety!

18th June 2005, 10:36 PM	#6
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	This looks like an 18th century American Sabre. There is an example shown with a very similar blade on plate #269 of Arms and Armour of Colonial America, Harold Peterson. Also, plate #256 has examples with similar hilts. n2s

19th June 2005, 02:54 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks, n2s. That was my feeling as well, but I wasn't too sure. I still don't have Peterson's book...I'll have to check out a copy via library loan. Thanks for responding. BTW, if it truly is American colonial, I'll be quite pleased!!