Hirshfanger bayonet

[Ron Anderson]

Here is another item in my collection with a fair degree of mystery associated with it.

I believe this is a hirshfanger bayonet. That is about all I know and I assume that this item hails from one of the German states in the 19th century, or from another Northern European country (Scandinavian?).

It has an interesting canvas covering to the scabbard, and a matching frog. This is old and dirty. It has layers of age to it and looks to me like the covering was created to protect the scabbard while out in the rain or the woods. Underneath the canvas covering is the scabbard. One can actually feel the mouth and chape and the leather of the scabbard and I can only surmise that having been protected for so long by the canvas it is in excellent, possibly mint, condition.

The spring on the locking mechanism appears to be missing. Otherwise, with the exception of small nicks on the blade, this bayonet is in extremely nice order.

I'm going to guess this item was used for hunting, and is not military. But are these not by nature military?

There is one marking on the blade, pictured here.

This seems to be rare and recently an item like this, without a scabbard, sold on eBay for an awful lot more than I paid.

Does anybody here have a better idea about this particular "hirshfanger bayonet". ie Does anybody know the pattern, origins, etc?

Also, it's a great opportunity for someone to expand on how these interesting sidearms developed. I for one would be very interested to know.

Regards
Ron

[Ron Anderson]

No comments?

I'd be surprised if no-one here has ever seen this sword-bayonet.

Yes, it is scarce but with the collective experience in this forum surely someone's got some idea of what it is.

The only clue I can offer is that I saw the exact piece for sale without a scabbard on Ebay - and it sold for a whopping sum. And sadly the seller had no idea what it was other than that it was a hirshfanger bayonet. This I had already concluded, so that was little help.

And I have seen that marking on one other sword on eBay - which appeared to be a gothic-style hunting sword, 19th century. Another unusual piece with quite an elaborate gothic scabbard.

I have spotted hirshfanger bayonets used in the Danish army too. I'm not sure how much further afield they extended.

Any insights at all will be appreciated.

[Bryan.H]

.................................................. .

[Ron Anderson]

Bryan

Thanks for your response. It was very illuminating.

However, there is a mechanism to attach to a firearm barrel. It is simply missing a spring, so that may be difficult to detect in the photo. In the eBay one I saw, the spring was still there.

The shaft you see on the side fits onto a firearm. Forgive me, I don't know much about guns or bayonets and don't really know the terminology used. However, it is a strange sliding mechanism that fits onto a barrel.

It is unusual to say the least, but it conforms to the mechanisms on other hirshfanger bayonets I've seen. It's not in the least like your standard military bayonet. This may not be military at all. It may have been used in civilian hunting for all I know - a hirshfanger that could clip onto a hunting rifle.

This is a sword-bayonet, by that definition, not just a sidearm.

You may well be right. This may well be English. It does look a bit like a band sword. But it also looks like a hunting sword. And it resembles other Hirshfanger bayonets I've seen.

Your post was very informed. Thanks. You've given me a bit to think about.

[Ron Anderson]

Here is an example of another Hirshfanger bayonet – Danish. It has almost exactly the same locking mechanism as my bayonet. The steel piece on this mechanism should be on mine but it is missing. You'll see the similarities with my bayonet in its style - both look like classic hunting swords, though this one with its odd shaped crown or crest still looks a bit like a hirshfanger. Mine has lost that shape, however the similarities are still clear. At least they're clear to me.

http://www.holmback.se/bayonets/Notes/Dan.htm

[Ron Anderson]

[Ron Anderson]

Sorry, I've been having difficulty pasting the exact link to the photo. Hopefully this works.

http://www.holmback.se/bayonets/pics...rk/m1848_3.jpg

[Ron Anderson]

Here is the other side of the Danish hirshfanger bayonet.

http://www.holmback.se/bayonets/pics...rk/m1848_2.jpg

[Ron Anderson]

It's worth noting that this is indeed a military issue item. I suspect mine must be too. But that's uncertain.

[Ron Anderson]

It appears that the hirshfanger bayonet is an oddity that even people here don't know about.

All I can say is that there are buyers on eBay who know about them because, once in a blue moon, one appears on eBay and ferocious bidding ensues.

I repeat, this is a hunting sword bayonet, not a fascine, not a pioneer sword, not a standard corps sidearm. Hirshfanger = a German hunting sword. Hirshfanger bayonet is subspecies of sword bayonet from the 19th century.

This is R.A.R.E.

I don't believe these things ever came out of England. I'd be surprised as heck if they were ever exported to South America. I think they are exclusively German/Scandinavian. (Collectors of German bayonets are most likely to know).

But go ahead, give me some information to the contrary. Make my day.

[celtan]

I own a Danish hirschfanger, but it isn't a bayonet, more like a cutlass/machete. Then, I also own a Swedish Sword-bayo, with a beautifully characteristic swedish blade.

Click on the thumbs:

Swedish Sword Bajo







Danish M1777-1801 Note the curved blade!

[Bryan.H]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Ron Anderson]

Sorry Bryan

You seem to be offended. That wasn't my intention.

I was just seeking to clarify what this item was and you had clearly misidentified it.

Keep well.

[Ron Anderson]

Those are great swords, Celtan.

Both of them. But I particularly like the Swedish sword bayonet.

The guard suggests they're not the sort of swords I associate with Hirschfangers. I wouldn't usually associate a stirrup hilt with a hunting sword. More like the type of symmetrical guard you see in the Danish bayonet I posted. Mine has that but has evolved a little to appear more like a standard bayonet.

However, that Swedish sword may be related in some way. I've not seen that before. Of those, there is also an English 'cutlass bayonet', but I think it's a later model. Not as early, and certainly as attractive, as that Swedish sword.

It's possible these Hirschfanger bayonets hail more from the scandinavian countries than from Germany. I will confess I haven't ever actually seen one positively identified as German. But I have seen Danish models. And now this Swedish cutlass-bayonet.

[celtan]

Hi Ron,

Hirschfanger actually means something like deer's canine (Tooth-fang?). Several of the forester hunting daggers from Nazi Germany are also classified as such. They are not too rare...

I'm not very into either sword bayonets or hirschfangers, although as you can see a few have attracted my attention. I own several spanish, american et al sword-bayonets, but the swedish c1815 one I posted has a really neat blade.

Best regards

Manuel

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Those are great swords, Celtan.

Both of them. But I particularly like the Swedish sword bayonet.

The guard suggests they're not the sort of swords I associate with Hirschfangers. I wouldn't usually associate a stirrup hilt with a hunting sword. More like the type of symmetrical guard you see in the Danish bayonet I posted. Mine has that but has evolved a little to appear more like a standard bayonet.

However, that Swedish sword may be related in some way. I've not seen that before. Of those, there is also an English 'cutlass bayonet', but I think it's a later model. Not as early, and certainly as attractive, as that Swedish sword.

It's possible these Hirschfanger bayonets hail more from the scandinavian countries than from Germany. I will confess I haven't ever actually seen one positively identified as German. But I have seen Danish models. And now this Swedish cutlass-bayonet.

[Ron Anderson]

hi Celtan

German hirschfangers are common as muck.

hirschfanger-bayonets are something different. clearly very rare. not even the learned members here seem to know anything about them.

[Jim McDougall]

Ron, I cannot speak for the 'learned members' here, but one thing I have discovered over many years here is that simply because there are no responses in a timely fashion to a thread emphatically does not mean the members have no knowledge of an item. I know that I certainly do not pretend to know about everything, but I typically spend time researching and learning about the topic at hand, and actually enjoy learning in this way.

Without going into the history of the bayonet itself, basically the first bayonets, the plug bayonets, in military sense, had a relatively short life span, giving way to the socket bayonet. The plug bayonet however, remained a favorite for hunters well into the 19th century, and even beyond in some countries (see R.D.C. Evans, "The Plug Bayonet").

Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971, p.67) notes that "...the military, more interested than the sporting fraternity in the ability of a gun to shoot with its bayonet fixed were quickly to abandon the plug bayonet in favor of the socket bayonet and then the clip on sword bayonet".

While the site you linked shows the M1848 Danish hirshfanger, it is clearly not the same design but the bar slot seems remarkably the same. I seems that these bar slot fixtures or similar notched slides are actually fairly well established on sword bayonets, such as the Baker types in England c.1820 and as you note, the Danish model. Most sword bayonets of these times were cast brass and cheaply produced as many 'other ranks' sidearms for various specialized units and line infantry, artillery etc.

In "Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", Frederick Stephens, 1971, #36) is shown a Prussian hirschfanger c.1790, which is remarkably like yours, but without as much of a vestigial crossguard, It has the same simple hilt and domed type pommel. I would speculate that yours is quite likely a Prussian or German state model later in the 19th century to a Jager regiment soldier.

The Jagers, as you probably already know, were military units who were recruited from huntsman and foresters in European regions, and were enlisted as reconaissance, skirmishers, snipers and often foragers. As they often furnished thier own weapons, they often carried hirshfangers (actually means deer catcher from a reference I saw), as secondary weapons.

There are many examples of hirshfangers which are combination weapons and are mounted with firearm locks and barrel which are seen from 17th and into 18th century. This tradition seems to have been present as early as 16th century even with wheelock mechanisms.

It would seem that the hirshfanger here is military, as noted, and again, probably German, about mid to third quarter 19th c.

I would be inclined to agree that this particular type of sword bayonet is indeed somewhat rare, most of the sword bayonets such as Bakers and some others are as well, and bayonet collecting is a deeply specialized field. Just how rare this might actually be is hard to say, as I note again, this is far outside my field of study. It is an intriguing piece and as always, illustrates that even the simplest appearing weapons can often have fascinating histories with the,

All best regards,
Jim

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Jim

Sorry if my last post seemed dismissive. Sometimes, the printed word can be misleading.

My occasionally laconic style might seem disrespectful at times. It did indeed seem as if no-one had any insight into this item. However, your post has certainly given me a lot of insight into its likely origins.

I'm inclined to agree with you on the age/period of the item, and was always of that opinion.

I guess I recognised it as rare because I have a certain acquiantance with bayonets, and this is the first of its type I have ever seen. In fact, at first I even questioned whether it was European. I thought it might be Asian!

Thanks for pointing that the Baker bayonet is in the same family of weapons. I had not thought of that, but you are no doubt correct. I am also more familiar with British military history than German.

You are right, bayonets are a real specialty. And German bayonets are a specialised field within a specialised field.

I think it is perhaps the popularity of German bayonet collecting, as much as anything else, that has prompted such impressive prices for hirschfanger bayonets on eBay.

I confess my knowledge is somewhat (actually, extremely) patchy in this area too.

Regards
Ron

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ron,
No problem, I know how frustrating it is when posts or threads go unanswered or seemingly unnoticed, and honestly try to answer as many of these as I can, despite not claiming any knowledge in a certain area.
I did recognize however, that you clearly have an apparantly sound base of knowledge on bayonets, a topic I havent really engaged much in since several decades ago. It remains a largely untapped area of arms study, and often regarded as too 'pedestrian' I have assumed because of its 'other ranks' and common associations. I recall great talks with RDC Evans though from years ago, and I truly admired his passion for these weapons.
He used to write a column monthly called "Cold Steel" that was a goldmine of information.

I appreciate your kind recognition of my admittedly superficial notes which are from simply brushing up with references at hand. It has seemed to me that German bayonets would be one of the broadest fields, the Solingen industrial machine not withstanding, and the Prussian military prevalence.

It is interesting what you mention about Asian bayonets, and it does not seem these were as prevalent as in the west. We have had some most interesting discussions about some extreme rarities such as the form from India which I believe was on a matchlock musket and perhaps flintlock later..also the rare 'kukri' bayonet of the Gurkhas. As I mentioned, it seems like most bayonets of 'sword' type after the socket bayonet relied on a bar slide like these, and apparantly the innovation arose about end of the 18th century. I recall the Baker's as they have always commanded high prices, and I believe there was another 'elcho' if memory serves.

I'm glad you brought this topic up, as clearly bayonets as noted are not a widely known and understood topic, at least in any particular depth. It is always great when we get a good topic of this nature and we can all learn a bit, as always, together

Celtan, great posts and thank you for sharing those examples!!! My reference to the etymology of hirschfanger was found in passing, and not meant to contradict yours..clearly more research is needed !!

Thanks very much,
Jim

[celtan]

Jimbo'

Sorry I have been absent from the forum so long, personal issues and a hectic lifestyle. : P

It's always a pleasure to read your well-written contributions. : )

I have a large collection of bayonets: Arisakas, Mausers, Mannlichers, Danish, USCW, SAW, Nazi daggers, WWII trench knives, etc...I have never posted them here since I though it was out-of-bounds materiel.

Regarding the Kukri, it's interesting how this particular blade-shape came from the Himalayas, to Greece's Kopis, to the Carthaginians and then to Iberian Falcatas. The Spanish Army still uses a bayonet blade based on same, specially the Legion.

BTW, when I'm wrong, kindly point it out. I knew a guy that went around dojos with a black-belt inscribed "stupid" in kanji, thinking it meant "great warrior". I always thought "Deer Fang" did not sound right, akin to "Bunny Fury". OTOH, "Deer-catcher" sounds just right. : )

Best Regards to all,

Manuel

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ron,
No problem, I know how frustrating it is when posts or threads go unanswered or seemingly unnoticed, and honestly try to answer as many of these as I can, despite not claiming any knowledge in a certain area.
I did recognize however, that you clearly have an apparantly sound base of knowledge on bayonets, a topic I havent really engaged much in since several decades ago. It remains a largely untapped area of arms study, and often regarded as too 'pedestrian' I have assumed because of its 'other ranks' and common associations. I recall great talks with RDC Evans though from years ago, and I truly admired his passion for these weapons.
He used to write a column monthly called "Cold Steel" that was a goldmine of information.

I appreciate your kind recognition of my admittedly superficial notes which are from simply brushing up with references at hand. It has seemed to me that German bayonets would be one of the broadest fields, the Solingen industrial machine not withstanding, and the Prussian military prevalence.

It is interesting what you mention about Asian bayonets, and it does not seem these were as prevalent as in the west. We have had some most interesting discussions about some extreme rarities such as the form from India which I believe was on a matchlock musket and perhaps flintlock later..also the rare 'kukri' bayonet of the Gurkhas. As I mentioned, it seems like most bayonets of 'sword' type after the socket bayonet relied on a bar slide like these, and apparantly the innovation arose about end of the 18th century. I recall the Baker's as they have always commanded high prices, and I believe there was another 'elcho' if memory serves.

I'm glad you brought this topic up, as clearly bayonets as noted are not a widely known and understood topic, at least in any particular depth. It is always great when we get a good topic of this nature and we can all learn a bit, as always, together

Celtan, great posts and thank you for sharing those examples!!! My reference to the etymology of hirschfanger was found in passing, and not meant to contradict yours..clearly more research is needed !!

Thanks very much,
Jim

[Ron Anderson]

Well, thank you both Celtan and Jim. You are both highly informed and extremely pleasant to chat with.

I would probably never have bought this if it had been more standard but its unusual nature prompted me to get it and I think it was a lucky find.

However, I may pass it on to someone more passionate about bayonets. Jim, you're right - it really is a specialised field of collecting. I'm not that informed, frankly. But I guess I have learned a little along the way.

I only like the rare ones, actually.

Regards
Ron

[Jim McDougall]

Celtan, its good to have you posting again, you have been missing for a while! Thanks for the kind words, and the great story on the misworded Kanji belt !! LOL!!!
On the bayonets, they really are an OK topic, even though sometimes they extend past our normal chronological boundaries, I think as I have noted they're overall vastly under discussed in collecting in many cases. As we have often seen in the ethnographic section, these blades were often recycled into many locally mounted weapons.

Ron, thank you also, and I agree this one was a lucky find. At least you have a better idea on it when you do let it go, and I think we have all learned a bit more on this rather seldom discussed topic. I'm with you on the rare examples, which are inclined to have a much more intriguing history than the commonly seen examples which have become almost generic in many cases with thier volume in availability.

All best regards,
Jim