Sword for identification

Marc · 7th September 2010, 03:44 PM

Thank you for the additonial pictures, Gio.
Just a couple of questions... is the end of the tang threaded, or is my eyes playing tricks on me again? Also, is a mark what I see at the beginning of the tang? Could it be possible to have a close-up?

In any event, a nice blade in an unusually excellent condition.

fernando · 7th September 2010, 06:14 PM

Hi Gio,
... following Marc's impressions.
Blade indeed looking too young, for the period it appears to represent

.
Do we discern some letters, among the other symbols on the blade, as being some initials for IN TOLEDO ?
Isn't the maker mark (?) on the tang a bit too close from the blade base?
... just wondering

Dmitry · 7th September 2010, 06:30 PM

Imho, the blade is 1600s-1700s. The shiny appearance is a result of overzealous cleaning with sandpaper or another invasive method, in the not so distant past.
Museums of the world are full of clean shiny blades. I don't hold the crappy state of the blade, or vice versa, a mirror-bright shine as a sign of age, or lack thereof.

fernando · 7th September 2010, 06:54 PM

I am far from considering your impressions as not being correct, Dmitry, but i wasn't necessarily judging this blade youth by being overcleaned ... on the contrary.
It's the depth of the symbols and specially the anchor that i find rather considerable; specially if the blade, as you suggest, has been 'thinned' by the sandpapering or polishing endurance, such depth being reduced.

GIO · 8th September 2010, 03:56 PM

Hi Marc and Fernando,
Thanks a lot for your kind answers.
Yes, the end of the tang is threaded and what appears at the beginning of the tang is a mark (see first pic).
On the blade appear a few letters and what appear decorative carvings.
The letters seem to be : E N T O L on one side and N X T O L on the other.
Another older sword of mine (see second pic) has a similar inscription : N T O L

Marc · 9th September 2010, 12:17 PM

Just to be completely honest, I haven't discarded a more or less modern replica (pretty well done, that's true), I just lack enough data, at the moment, to say much more than what it has been already said. Here's where things like a traceable provenance kick in to help, for example, and what turns every case in a particular world by itself.
Oh, well, that's what keeps things interesting, too...

Jim McDougall · 9th September 2010, 01:40 PM

My concerns are the rather heavily embellished 'x's ; that the fuller runs to the root of the blade; the typical Toledo type makers cartouche, often with a T is absent in the blade root area and most apparant, the unusually crisp 'anchor' is within the fuller rather than at its terminus.
Also, I have never seen one of these tangs threaded.

But, as Marc has well noted, thats what keeps things interesting, and it would seem that as this type of blade was heavily exported specifically for hilting locally produced or refurbishing damaged rapiers in Spain's colonies.

8th September 2010, 03:56 PM	#5
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 328	Hi Marc and Fernando, Thanks a lot for your kind answers. Yes, the end of the tang is threaded and what appears at the beginning of the tang is a mark (see first pic). On the blade appear a few letters and what appear decorative carvings. The letters seem to be : E N T O L on one side and N X T O L on the other. Another older sword of mine (see second pic) has a similar inscription : N T O L Attached Images

7th September 2010, 03:44 PM	#1
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Thank you for the additonial pictures, Gio. Just a couple of questions... is the end of the tang threaded, or is my eyes playing tricks on me again? Also, is a mark what I see at the beginning of the tang? Could it be possible to have a close-up? In any event, a nice blade in an unusually excellent condition.

7th September 2010, 06:14 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Gio, ... following Marc's impressions. Blade indeed looking too young, for the period it appears to represent . Do we discern some letters, among the other symbols on the blade, as being some initials for IN TOLEDO ? Isn't the maker mark (?) on the tang a bit too close from the blade base? ... just wondering

7th September 2010, 06:30 PM	#3
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Imho, the blade is 1600s-1700s. The shiny appearance is a result of overzealous cleaning with sandpaper or another invasive method, in the not so distant past. Museums of the world are full of clean shiny blades. I don't hold the crappy state of the blade, or vice versa, a mirror-bright shine as a sign of age, or lack thereof.

7th September 2010, 06:54 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I am far from considering your impressions as not being correct, Dmitry, but i wasn't necessarily judging this blade youth by being overcleaned ... on the contrary. It's the depth of the symbols and specially the anchor that i find rather considerable; specially if the blade, as you suggest, has been 'thinned' by the sandpapering or polishing endurance, such depth being reduced.

9th September 2010, 12:17 PM	#6
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Just to be completely honest, I haven't discarded a more or less modern replica (pretty well done, that's true), I just lack enough data, at the moment, to say much more than what it has been already said. Here's where things like a traceable provenance kick in to help, for example, and what turns every case in a particular world by itself. Oh, well, that's what keeps things interesting, too...

9th September 2010, 01:40 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	My concerns are the rather heavily embellished 'x's ; that the fuller runs to the root of the blade; the typical Toledo type makers cartouche, often with a T is absent in the blade root area and most apparant, the unusually crisp 'anchor' is within the fuller rather than at its terminus. Also, I have never seen one of these tangs threaded. But, as Marc has well noted, thats what keeps things interesting, and it would seem that as this type of blade was heavily exported specifically for hilting locally produced or refurbishing damaged rapiers in Spain's colonies.