19th century gothic dagger?

Ron Anderson · 31st August 2010, 02:56 AM

Hi David

Thanks for posting those pictures. The scabbards in particular mirror the style of my piece.

I think you're right – it is a rather vague category, probably created in hindsight. I doubt at the time anyone would have thought of these as "romantic daggers". They reflect the romanticism of that period, I think, and have been labelled that way to identify them broadly to collectors, and perhaps to separate them from later fantasy daggers.

I can only speculate that the reason they were carried by prostitutes is that they were quite pretty and quite dramatic. Mine is a bigger example, but the smaller ones were also obviously easy to conceal, so useful for that kind of work.

I believe the manufacturers of these knives found a ready market among prostitutes, but they were no doubt used more widely too. As Mark noted, probably as letter openers.

This is guesswork. I have no hard evidence of this.

It is interesting that they seem confined largely to France - in fact, to such a degree that collectors elsewhere don't even really know about them.

There are one or two English examples I know about. But the English always ended up imitating the French, didn't they?

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2010, 09:08 AM

This very intriguing looking dagger seems to me 'made in the 19th century style' of romantic theme or allegorical daggers of these times. The term 'romantic' derives from the Gothic themes and novels popular in the time, and one of the popular subjects in image was of course Notre Dame cathedral. The gargoyle figure corresponds to these representations of lurking evil which decorate parts of the cathedral, with these legendary creatures usually a dragonlike beast with batlike wings.

Other daggers of this type have been discussed (such as the spirited discussion David linked from 2007) in which the Notre Dame theme also occurs, and there seem to be other theme type daggers of the mid to latter 19th century which form basis for many of these 20th century interpretations, as well as many of the French associations.

The link to the macabre may derive from the theme daggers produced in 16th century, where the 'dance of death' allegory was from the book published by Hans Holbein (the younger) in Lyon, and applied to the decoration of these daggers.

While many of these daggers invoke a foreboding appearance that seems to inspire many to label them satanic, thinking that these might be examples of the athame daggers used ceremonally, and better termed 'occult', these seem to be simply interpretive examples of the earlier theme daggers.
It seems some of these have brought some pretty amazing results when sold, however typically they seem to have had early blades from other weapons which added support to interesting provenance...but still the stories along with some of these are apocryphal at best.
The mention of fraternal and secret societies is well placed, and often unusual themed accoutrements have been used in all manner of regalia, so these kinds of attribution always have a degree of plausibility......by thier very nature though, research is pretty difficult

Still, these are intriguing in appearance and interesting pieces, always great for conversation!!

Ron Anderson · 31st August 2010, 10:24 AM

Thank you Jim

The question then is: is this 19th century or 20th?

I can't give a definitive answer to that. I have seen two of these gargoyles here in Sydney with subtle variation - one with its mouth open (mine) and the other its mouth closed.

Both have some age. The other had some damage to the scabbard. Mine was cleaned up by the person who sold it to me. Some of the silver plating has gone and the copper shines though. The blade shows signs of oxidation even though it's been cleaned up.

But age is hard to determine, as I am discovering daily. I have a gaucho here dated 1965 and the blade looks two hundred years old. I also have a briquet that seems to be a 100 years younger than I thought it was.

At the same time, I have an 18th century hunting sword from Austria in beautiful condition, with very little to suggest its age.

I will say that if this is a 20th century dagger, it is not a new one. If it is not antique, it is certainly vintage.

It is hard to see those subtle signs that suggest age over a photo. In these photos they have all been eliminated by the flash.

Regards
Ron

fernando · 31st August 2010, 02:26 PM

Dague de pute, bodice dagger, garter dagger, you name it.
Perhaps at a certain stage they were the favourite defence weapon of 'ladies of uncertain bed', when working in the tumultuos ambience of gambling houses and cabarets ... easy to conceal and not large enough for a lethal blow.
I guess Ron's example is already a product more directed to the tourist market, with that gargoyle touch. Probably XX century.
Interesting how the base of the blade ('ricasso') follows the shape of those XIX examples.

.

Marc · 31st August 2010, 03:59 PM

Over the years I've seen a good handful of daggers of this type (the ones Fernando posted, I mean), with some variations (horn, ebony or ivory handles, for example, and either straight or wavy blades), but all of similar size and style, and all with the same kind of lenticular ricasso, also.
At least one of them (sorry, no pictures) was marked in the ricasso with:

1875
TOLEDO

I tend to consider them as fancy/utility/defence-if-there's-nothing-else-available, late 19th early 20th. Yes, here in Spain they are also frequently associated with... er... well, women who smoke and call you "honey"... but, frankly, I still have to find any reference that could give some real substance to this association. Until proven otherwise, I prefer to think of it as another "Collector's Label".
I kind of like the type, they are elegant and "chic", if you get my drift. The one presented here is a particularly nice one, though, even if only for the sculptural work. Congratulations

.

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2010, 06:40 PM

My pleasure Ron! but I'm afraid I havent added much but plausible ideas, and as you note, estimating age is a tough one, especially after an item has been cleaned and (to me, sadly) the patination is gone. There are traces of it here in the hilt figure so there is some age, and I agree, the conditions in which the weapon has been held have great bearing on these things.

As I mentioned, this is clearly in '19th century style' as beautifully illustrated by Fernando and also well observed by Marc. Getting back to the colorful 'pulp fiction' collectors tales about being for ladies of the evening, like most of these stories, mostly hyperbole. This is not to say these might not have found such use, but then, its like assuming every 'gambler' in the 1880's in the American Wild West saloons carried a pocket derringer; every gunfighter had a Colt .45 'peacemaker' etc .
These daggers have effectively made blades, so they're not just decorative from what I can see, but they are an accoutrement, and clearly made to be seen, not concealed. That is why they seem to possibly be intended as a votive item ceremonially, or perhaps worn in the societal sense previously mentioned.

This is most likely 'vintage' (good word Ron!

and with intriguing possibilities, which is a good thing for those of us with a bit of the romantic (an affliction which seems to go with the territory for empassioned collector/historians

Marc, hard to look at these interesting daggers and not think of Cirlot, and the symbolics!

All best regards,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 1st September 2010, 02:42 AM

Well, it's a keeper, certainly, but probably worth what I paid.

I'll be looking for more of these sorts of daggers. I agree, they are quite chic.

31st August 2010, 02:26 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Dague de pute, bodice dagger, garter dagger, you name it. Perhaps at a certain stage they were the favourite defence weapon of 'ladies of uncertain bed', when working in the tumultuos ambience of gambling houses and cabarets ... easy to conceal and not large enough for a lethal blow. I guess Ron's example is already a product more directed to the tourist market, with that gargoyle touch. Probably XX century. Interesting how the base of the blade ('ricasso') follows the shape of those XIX examples. . Attached Images

31st August 2010, 02:56 AM	#1
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi David Thanks for posting those pictures. The scabbards in particular mirror the style of my piece. I think you're right – it is a rather vague category, probably created in hindsight. I doubt at the time anyone would have thought of these as "romantic daggers". They reflect the romanticism of that period, I think, and have been labelled that way to identify them broadly to collectors, and perhaps to separate them from later fantasy daggers. I can only speculate that the reason they were carried by prostitutes is that they were quite pretty and quite dramatic. Mine is a bigger example, but the smaller ones were also obviously easy to conceal, so useful for that kind of work. I believe the manufacturers of these knives found a ready market among prostitutes, but they were no doubt used more widely too. As Mark noted, probably as letter openers. This is guesswork. I have no hard evidence of this. It is interesting that they seem confined largely to France - in fact, to such a degree that collectors elsewhere don't even really know about them. There are one or two English examples I know about. But the English always ended up imitating the French, didn't they?

31st August 2010, 09:08 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This very intriguing looking dagger seems to me 'made in the 19th century style' of romantic theme or allegorical daggers of these times. The term 'romantic' derives from the Gothic themes and novels popular in the time, and one of the popular subjects in image was of course Notre Dame cathedral. The gargoyle figure corresponds to these representations of lurking evil which decorate parts of the cathedral, with these legendary creatures usually a dragonlike beast with batlike wings. Other daggers of this type have been discussed (such as the spirited discussion David linked from 2007) in which the Notre Dame theme also occurs, and there seem to be other theme type daggers of the mid to latter 19th century which form basis for many of these 20th century interpretations, as well as many of the French associations. The link to the macabre may derive from the theme daggers produced in 16th century, where the 'dance of death' allegory was from the book published by Hans Holbein (the younger) in Lyon, and applied to the decoration of these daggers. While many of these daggers invoke a foreboding appearance that seems to inspire many to label them satanic, thinking that these might be examples of the athame daggers used ceremonally, and better termed 'occult', these seem to be simply interpretive examples of the earlier theme daggers. It seems some of these have brought some pretty amazing results when sold, however typically they seem to have had early blades from other weapons which added support to interesting provenance...but still the stories along with some of these are apocryphal at best. The mention of fraternal and secret societies is well placed, and often unusual themed accoutrements have been used in all manner of regalia, so these kinds of attribution always have a degree of plausibility......by thier very nature though, research is pretty difficult Still, these are intriguing in appearance and interesting pieces, always great for conversation!!

31st August 2010, 10:24 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Thank you Jim The question then is: is this 19th century or 20th? I can't give a definitive answer to that. I have seen two of these gargoyles here in Sydney with subtle variation - one with its mouth open (mine) and the other its mouth closed. Both have some age. The other had some damage to the scabbard. Mine was cleaned up by the person who sold it to me. Some of the silver plating has gone and the copper shines though. The blade shows signs of oxidation even though it's been cleaned up. But age is hard to determine, as I am discovering daily. I have a gaucho here dated 1965 and the blade looks two hundred years old. I also have a briquet that seems to be a 100 years younger than I thought it was. At the same time, I have an 18th century hunting sword from Austria in beautiful condition, with very little to suggest its age. I will say that if this is a 20th century dagger, it is not a new one. If it is not antique, it is certainly vintage. It is hard to see those subtle signs that suggest age over a photo. In these photos they have all been eliminated by the flash. Regards Ron

31st August 2010, 03:59 PM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Over the years I've seen a good handful of daggers of this type (the ones Fernando posted, I mean), with some variations (horn, ebony or ivory handles, for example, and either straight or wavy blades), but all of similar size and style, and all with the same kind of lenticular ricasso, also. At least one of them (sorry, no pictures) was marked in the ricasso with: 1875 TOLEDO I tend to consider them as fancy/utility/defence-if-there's-nothing-else-available, late 19th early 20th. Yes, here in Spain they are also frequently associated with... er... well, women who smoke and call you "honey"... but, frankly, I still have to find any reference that could give some real substance to this association. Until proven otherwise, I prefer to think of it as another "Collector's Label". I kind of like the type, they are elegant and "chic", if you get my drift. The one presented here is a particularly nice one, though, even if only for the sculptural work. Congratulations .

31st August 2010, 06:40 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	My pleasure Ron! but I'm afraid I havent added much but plausible ideas, and as you note, estimating age is a tough one, especially after an item has been cleaned and (to me, sadly) the patination is gone. There are traces of it here in the hilt figure so there is some age, and I agree, the conditions in which the weapon has been held have great bearing on these things. As I mentioned, this is clearly in '19th century style' as beautifully illustrated by Fernando and also well observed by Marc. Getting back to the colorful 'pulp fiction' collectors tales about being for ladies of the evening, like most of these stories, mostly hyperbole. This is not to say these might not have found such use, but then, its like assuming every 'gambler' in the 1880's in the American Wild West saloons carried a pocket derringer; every gunfighter had a Colt .45 'peacemaker' etc . These daggers have effectively made blades, so they're not just decorative from what I can see, but they are an accoutrement, and clearly made to be seen, not concealed. That is why they seem to possibly be intended as a votive item ceremonially, or perhaps worn in the societal sense previously mentioned. This is most likely 'vintage' (good word Ron! and with intriguing possibilities, which is a good thing for those of us with a bit of the romantic (an affliction which seems to go with the territory for empassioned collector/historians Marc, hard to look at these interesting daggers and not think of Cirlot, and the symbolics! All best regards, Jim

1st September 2010, 02:42 AM	#7
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Well, it's a keeper, certainly, but probably worth what I paid. I'll be looking for more of these sorts of daggers. I agree, they are quite chic.