Next keris from Polish Museum

[Tim Simmons]

Here here,though I am not that keen on Eric Clapton.Tim

[wolviex]

Thank you Boedhi Adhitya for your wide description. I can admit that I'm still a little lost in all those terminology, but this is great help. All these name are still sound strange to me, but I'm learning and familiarizing with them... slowly . Anyway I found this fascinating.
I don't know how this keris found its way to Poland. There are some possibilities. First of all there were Polish travelers, and some of them were visiting far away Indonesian islands. There are even some journals about their far away travels. I believe that some of them brought few pieces back with them. Second option is, that many examples of these weapons, as spectacular ones, were brought from other countries like Spain, France, England, Germany and other, which were in trade, political and strong cultural contacts with Poland, during 16th-19th centuries. Polish noblemen were often guests in these countries, there were making additions to theirs collections there, and it's for sure, that some of kerises (and maybe this one included) may found its way to Poland through these contacts.

I think that Tom touched serious problem, and he is right writing about Mastery. I don't want to make a discussion about it, but this is obviuos we often understand this word different. In this case, while this keris is from much different culture than I am, I can't tell is it good or not. I can tell only this is nice through my cultural experience. People who are more familiar with these weapons are able to judge about it more properly, so I believe that our kerislovers are somehow right, knowing more pieces than I do. Of course, we have to look and judge from a different points of view i.e. 16th century European drawer (like Albrecht Durer), and from the other peasant artist from the same period. Both might be the "masters", but judging their works quality depends on that what we are looking for, and what are our expactations and knowledge about them. I hope I'm clear. English for me is illegible but different cultural too

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Dear Wolviex,
Making a keris handle might be easy, and might be hard, just like the painting Every children might be able to draw something on paper, but only master painter who could make a Monalisa. Some good and talented painter might copy the Monalisa, but if we compare it head-to-head, some experts in painting might say something, don't they ? I didn't say that every good painting must look like Monalisa, but it is "the character" which make some artwork different than another. Just like any good song will bring "a mood" to you when you hear it. The same thing applied to the perfect, state-of-the art handle. It is neither the details nor the shape which make it hard to make. It is "the nuance", "proper balance", "character" or anything, you might name it, which is hard to reach. It takes talent, experience, skill, and most of all, it takes times. Old days mastercarvers or sheathmakers were fully supported by the court. They made their work while "on the mood", as any other artworks. Today carver work "on the need", or according to "the market", not the quality. And anyway, only a little, ridiculously paying attention to details collectors / keris' connoiseurs who might (and able to!) appreciate those "state-of-the art" handle, while they very little in quantity and not willing to pay more for newly made handle, so why bother ? I believe, by studying a lot of good old handles, a young, capable and talented carver might able to make the good ones. But studying more than one style is very hard, because "the character", "proper balance" or anything (as you name it before ) particular to one style might mixed up one-another, and "confuse" the carver. Just like a rocker try to compose some middle-east song might ended up on an alternative ones

For the second question, well, I do sorry, I have no other opinion than what have been posted here before. Yes, it's unique and rare. I might have seen it, but didn't pay any attention Sorry, my fault. Until today, I'm only paying attention to what called "pakem" (conform to the rule) handle, especially Jogja's Pakem. I agree to Meneer Cedric that this hilt might came from east java, the "pasisiran", which considered as "out of the court" in 16th. c. But not the blade ! It might be court made !

About the dating, I agree that Sier Jensen's method is very reliable, althought not accurate enough, it might means a lot. (as long as no one faked the inventory note, of course ). I myself do question the traditional dating methods (Tangguh). Is it really as old as it says ? But, well, no other methods. Even the Sonobudoyo Musem in Jogjakarta asked Pametri Wiji to date their keris collections. Wish some experts on dating, Iron dating particularly, might find another, non-destructive preferably, reliable method.

Salam.

[BluErf]

Originally Posted by Boedhi Adhitya

Dear Wolviex,
... it is "the character" which make some artwork different than another. Just like any good song will bring "a mood" to you when you hear it. The same thing applied to the perfect, state-of-the art handle. It is neither the details nor the shape which make it hard to make. It is "the nuance", "proper balance", "character" or anything, you might name it, which is hard to reach. It takes talent, experience, skill, and most of all, it takes times. Old days mastercarvers or sheathmakers were fully supported by the court. They made their work while "on the mood", as any other artworks. Today carver work "on the need", or according to "the market", not the quality. And anyway, only a little, ridiculously paying attention to details collectors / keris' connoiseurs who might (and able to!) appreciate those "state-of-the art" handle, while they very little in quantity and not willing to pay more for newly made handle, so why bother ? I believe, by studying a lot of good old handles, a young, capable and talented carver might able to make the good ones. But studying more than one style is very hard, because "the character", "proper balance" or anything (as you name it before ) particular to one style might mixed up one-another, and "confuse" the carver.

I absolutely agree with this, Boedhi! You said what I had wanted to say, and so accurately!

Hi Tuan Cedric -- I thought the Durga unveiled you posted looked more like Nava Sari. The unveiled Durga I've seen Kerner's book and one that I have handled all had big conspicuous bosoms, which in your example, looked rather muted. Actually, how do we tell whether the thing held in the hand was a veil or a sheaf of rice, or a club?

[BluErf]

Here's a Nava Sari from Kerner's book.

[Tim Simmons]

I believe the hand gesture is a represention of this, and the duality is further expressed in the hilt and scabbard of keris.Tim

[Battara]

What you have here in this image is the lingam of Shiva, representing his penis for the most part.

[Tim Simmons]

Indeed set in a yoni, showing the double-sexed nature of the deity Durga or Kali in other parts of Asia.Tim

[Tim Simmons]

These are Indian images of Kali,the great goddess,the terrible goddess {based on the source}seated on the corpse-Siva, again a dualitiy in giving and taking life.Tim

[wolviex]

Sorry for being quite for some time, but I was very busy.

Boedhi Adhitya: thank you for your further explanations. This is just what I expected to hear/read. I could exacerbate this problem, but until it isn't main subject of this discussion, I will leave childish questions "why" "why" for better times

Tuancd: thank you for your pictures. I hope they'll help us in discussion. We can clearly see, there are very visible similarities.

Tim: your pictures are great. Great work, and I want to thank you for your commitment. Your reasearches are very helpful. As far as I can understand you, these are only your theories. If so, maybe someone more familiar with mythology could explain us more

All the best!

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

These are Indian images of Kali,the great goddess,the terrible goddess {based on the source}seated on the corpse-Siva, again a dualitiy in giving and taking life.Tim

Seated, eh? Is that what you blokes call it over over there?

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Woliex, this is a fasinating subjet, I would hope that what I have researched is more than my theories In the picture of Durga from the temple in Java, she is not only making the lingam-yoni symbol, she is also holding a shell trumpet on which the creative sound is made.Tim

[wolviex]

Hello Tim

I'm tending to believe in your "double-sexed nature of the deity" theory also.

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Wolviex, this is a picture of a 19th century emblem of the trumpet of Creative Sound.Tim

[wolviex]

Thanks again.

One question. If Durga, as it is mostly believed, is multi-armed goddess, why on keris handles she is depicted as two arms woman. Why are these differences made, or could an artist made such departure from the rule ??

[Tim Simmons]

I agree whole heartedly with a lot of what you say,I obviously got all my information from a Batman comic.Thanks Tim

[BluErf]

Actually, I must admit I only read about the hilt form being Durga in Kerner's book. Well, I suppose that's another fallacy to be dispelled, and what this forum is for.

[wolviex]

marto suwignyo: well, I must admit you entered with lightning and thunders. So...what we were talking about . Should I ask moderators to delete all the posts and should we start discussion from the beginning. Or maybe someone will rescue all of this saying just: "it is traditionally believed that it is Durga"

Thank you for your post because it will let us think about all of this once more

[nechesh]

Wolviex, why on earth would you want any of these posts deleted? The whole conversation has all been pretty interesting. Marto's post certainly put things in perspective and Blu is right to point out that the Durga reference to this hilt seems to have only been mentioned in one book, Kerner's.
If it makes you feel better, Marto points out that this hilt could represent ANY female form, so it is still POSSIBLY that it MIGHT be Durga.
It would be nice to know for sure, but as is often the case with these things, we might never know. But that shouldn't dicourage us from digging, discussing and making guesses (educated of course ).

[Tim Simmons]

Some of you may find these pictures interesting.Tim

[marto suwignyo]

Interesting.
But I think that in essence we have no advance in our understanding. Simply because several authors say the same thing, does not make that thing correct.There is a tendency, even in academia, to continue to quote previously published works, even when those works may be demonstrably inaccurate, and popular writings on the keris are not subjected to the same close critical scrutiny as are academic writings.

We still have only a female figure, with no facial features. This has been interpreted as Durga, which it may be, but it may equally be something else entirely.

I have had a look at Knick-Bumke`s article, and quite frankly, I feel that it argues against the case for this handle being a representation of Durga.

There is no dispute that Durga can be represented as a normal woman. As I stated earlier, the most common representation of Durga is as a beautiful young yellow woman riding a tiger.However, I do not know of any representation of Durga in this form in Java.

Even if it could be shown that there this an association between this handle form, and the later classical period in Java, that does not provide any evidence that the figure shown is a representation of Durga.

The hand position is still ill defined.
To interpret this hand position as anything would require a giant leap of faith. We still only have possibilities. But let us suppose that it can be interpreted as a definite, religiously symbolic hand position, that in itself would not allow us to state that the figure is a representation of Durga.Apart from which, as I advised earlier, this hand position is not a constant in all handles of this form.

On the subject of the "veiled Durga".
We can find this idea repeating itself again and again in writings about the keris, however, can we find a single monumental representation of a "veiled Durga" anywhere in Java, or in mainland India, or anywhere else?

Can we find mention of and explanation of the idea of "veiled Durga" in any religious work? Anthropological work?

The Hindu faith is not one of my strong points, and is really only a fringe interest for me in my study of the keris, so I would welcome it if somebody more well versed in this faith could direct me to some representations of a "veiled Durga" in monumental works, or to a credible religious work with explanation of this form. I rather suspect that the phrase "veiled Durga" is actually a reference to the female element represented by the Great Mother---Durga--being the source of all wisdom.

In the Hindu faith the Supreme being can be worshipped as a Male God, or as a Female God, or simply as Transcendental Bliss. We must realise that nothing we think we see is actually what we do see.

For instance, just as Durga is one of the names of Dewi, or Parvati, so Kali is another of her names. Kali is seen as a bloodthirsty character, but Kali`s activities are not destructive to the cosmic order, rather they preserve the cosmic order, as her aim is to destroy the demonic forces before these forces can cause danger to that cosmic order.

We have wandered into a discussion on religious symbolism here, and this is something that really is best left to those with training in the field. What we need to do is to find the writings of these experts and quote those writings to substantiate the existence and form of "veiled Durga".

When we begin to examine the keris in Java, we undertake the examination of a cultural artifact. For legitimate opinion to be expressed on aspects of this artifact we need to turn to the elements of the culture to allow us to understand that which we wish to come to terms with. We need to turn to history, religion, and the structure of the society itself.
So, if we would like to confirm that this handle presently under discusion is in fact a representation of Durga, I would suggest that as a bare minimum we need to satisfy the following :-
1) demonstrate the existence of a physical representation of Durga that is accepted by authorities in an academic field, or religion, as the vieled form of this Goddess.
2) provide reference to credible published works that substantiate the existence of Durga in a physically veiled form.
3) demonstrate that this veiled form of Durga was known and existed in Java.
4) demonstrate that the handle form under discussion is in fact a representation of this form.

If the "veiled Durga" truly does exist, this should not be too big an ask.
My own knowledge in this field is totally inadequate to allow me to provide such proofs, and I will welcome the veil of ignorance being lifted from my eyes by those equipped to do so.

[Tim Simmons]

Thats better, thanks Tim

[marto suwignyo]

Tim:-
since your post of 4.44pm directly follows my post of 11.57am I am assuming that your comment:-

"Thats better, thanks, Tim"

is directed at me.

Would you be so kind as to explain exactly what I have written in my post of 11.57am to generate this comment from you.

I have re-examined what I have written in all three of my posts to this thread, and I cannot detect any significant difference in the stance I have taken in my first post, to that which I have take in my third post.

My position remains that there is no evidence on the table that this wadon handle is a representation of Durga.

If I am in error that you have directed your remarks to me , please accept my most humble apologies for daring to presume.

[Tim Simmons]

Hello Marto, it was in appreciation of the less strident assertion of your valued opinion.Tim

[tuancd]

Hi everybody

the thread is getting hot!

Thanks to Durga

More seriously, I'll be very pleased if anybody can fulfil Marto's wishes. I doubt it, but i'll sincerely appreciate any clue (and moreover with pics) about a monumental veiled durga.

By the way, if you can get some pics of a monumental statue of Hinduist god in java post 16th and pre 20th, I'm very interested. (Panji is also welcome as are the Pandawa, Korawa etc...)

It's not because there's not a big statue that this handle is not what we say it is. And there are no big statues because of the Islamic rules. Wayang has hardly survived because the Wayang kulit was far enough of the human form representations. You will notice that this have not even been the case for wayang Golek (try to find the same heroes in Wayang kulit and golek and you will realise that some are missing, even for the same stories)

And this does not means that the Hinduism influence has totally disappeared from the Javanese culture. There are plenty of examples of popular art and precisely related to keris that show the evolutions of the sculpture between the 16th and now.

Marto
Doubting your reading is good and sane. At least it means you have read something. By the way, Marto, if you are interested in the subject I humbly suggest that you read the article rather than go trough it.
And before stating that M Kerner, Jensen, de Marval have no credit for their work you'd better read their books before.

I personally do not agree with all of what they say, but I recognise that their work is professional and valuable.
A forum like our is to share opinions and the more we can push the limits of knowledge, the better. Just mind a little respect, that will make the discussion more constructive.

Now regarding the beautiful yellow skin girl…
DURGA
In the ancient Vedic texts, Durga was the consort of Shiva and some Hindu sects regard her as the personification of the primeval creative force, the Divine Mother. She is sometimes referred to as Durga, sometimes as Kali or Shakti. These sects worship Durga as a frequently benevolent, but occasionally unforgiving and destructive, all-powerful goddess, able to punish or bestow grace on mortals to enable them to comprehend (he transparent nature of God.
The Javanese and Balinese variants of Hinduism give a different interpretation of Durga. For them, she is the Goddess of Evil, Darkness and Destruction. Where the origins of the Indian Durga are shrouded in mystic cosmology the Javanese world of wayang has created its own complex stories
about Durga and Guru's other consorts.
The most common story is that Bathara Guru had become angry with his wife, Dewi Umayi, after she had foiled his attempt to have an affair with a young goddess. Guru cursed Umayi, declaring that he would turn her into an ugly ogress. The curse was soon fulfilled in a strange way. Guru and Umayi came across a young ogress deep in meditation. Her name in the Yogyakarta tradition was Dewi Pramuni (elsewhere she is known as Dewi Danupati or Dewi Tendana). Pramuni aspired to be at least as beautiful as the nymphs of Heaven. Guru granted her wish but only on condition that her spirit enter the body of the beautiful Dewi Umayi. Dewi Umayi's spirit in turn was to enter the ugly ogress body of Dewi Pramuni. Pramuni's new-found beauty did not last; she soon adopted all the most dreadful attributes of an ogress and was given the name Durga. Which means 'disappointed' or 'never content". Guru then forced Durga to marry Bathara Kala, the ogre son of his spilled seed. In other versions, it was Dewi Umayi, in her new shape as an ogress, who became Bathari Durga; and Kala married the now beautiful Dewi Pramuni.
As a goddess, Durga lived in Setragandamayi, a lonely place filled with evil spirits and the stench of decaying corpses. She acquired the divine ability to bestow blessings upon all who worshipped her.
Durga is the incarnation of evil in many Javanese wayang stories. With her husband, Bathara Kala, Durga was forever meddling in the affairs of the gods and men, sowing discord between friends and spreading misfortune. She had a particular dislike for Arjuna and his Pandawa brothers, seeking on many occasions to ruin them.
In puppet form as Bathari Durga, her barefooted puppet is oversized, with a hideous face, bulging devils eyes, a wide flat nose and the fangs of a vicious dog. Tell me if it reminds you of something…
That will be all
for today

[Tim Simmons]

Why are so called scholars happy to accept the Hindu origin of the "sarpa tapa" and "sarpa lumaka" and a whole host of other Hindu cultral icons such as Naga,Singa,Genesha often shown on the base of the blade.I even have pictures of a Ganesha, carved bone handle from Bali, and yet we are having problems with this handle which as far as I can see is clearly making a sign with her hand, if other Hindu deities are in accepted use why not Durga?Tim

[marto suwignyo]

Thank you for your response, Tim.

I regret that you found my writing style excessively and unpleasantly forceful, most especially so as I am keenly aware of the sometimes quite distasteful remarks which have been exchanged in discussions regarding the keris, and I have attempted to keep my own contributions purely objective. I will apologise in advance for any future offence I may cause to you, as I have already taken several steps back from my normal style of discussion, and have difficulty in identifying how I can make a point in a less forceful manner.


You raise the question:-
Why are so called scholars happy to accept the Hindu origin of the "sarpa tapa" and "sarpa lumaka" and a whole host of other Hindu cultral icons such as Naga,Singa,Genesha often shown on the base of the blade.I even have pictures of a Ganesha, carved bone handle from Bali, and yet we are having problems with this handle which as far as I can see is clearly making a sign with her hand, if other Hindu deities are in accepted use why not Durga?Tim


I think I understand your confusion in this matter, but if we look carefully at the points you have raised, I believe we will come to realisation that we are looking at entirely different questions.The Hindu symbolism that we find in motifs or iconology associated with the keris are often very clear, and have been accepted within Javanese society for extended periods of time. In the case of our wadon handle we have a female figure that we wish to claim as a representation of Durga, but which is not generally recognised within Javanese society as a representation of Durga. I have spent a very long time involved in the study of the keris, and much of that time has been spent in Java. I had never heard the concept of a "veiled Durga" applied to this wadon handle until perhaps about ten years ago, and when I did hear it, it was not in Java, but in a western context.

I have no objection to keris enthusiasts in western societies referring to this handle style as a veiled Durga. We have plenty of precedents for the giving of names concocted in a western context, to keris and components of keris, so if western collectors want to call this handle style a "veiled Durga", let us by all means do so. At least we will all know what we are talking about.

However, if we set out to demonstrate that this handle style was intended by the people who used it, to represent Durga, then we have an entirely different problem.

To provide the evidence needed to allow us to mount a reasonable argument that this handle style is in fact a represenation of Durga, then we need to apply the tools of academic enquiry, as much as those tools may interfere with our fondly held beliefs.
There is a difference between opinion and proof, and to date, all we have in respect of this handle is opinion.

TUAN CD

Please permit me to thank you most sincerely for your well intentioned advice.

Undoubtedly it will come as a surprise to you that not only did I read the Knick-Bumke article, but I also carried out analysis of that article in an attempt to determine how the content could be used to substantiate the claim that the wadon handle is in fact a representation of Durga. Regretably I was unable to extract such proof from my analysis.

I do not believe that I stated that Jensen, Kerner and de Marval should not be given credit for their work. In fact I hold Martin Kerner in high regard, and count him as a friend. I actually collaborated with him in a minor way in the production of his brilliant analytical work on the origin of early keris.
I accept that you feel you are doing me a service by illuminating my percieved inadequacies, but I would ask that if you wish to continue to try to assist me in this way that you please refrain from misquoting me.

Allow me to compliment you upon your erudition in respect of the wayang. Perhaps you may care to continue our education by outlining the way in which the original Javanese dieties were given Hindu names and the new wayang characters became a syncretic representation of both the old Javanese dieties and the new Hindu ones.Then of course we had the influence of Islam, the influence of the courts , the influence of Christianity, and in latter days the influence of the new Indonesia. Fascinating stuff. The wayang serves as an almost perfect example of the ability of the Javanese to absorb, alter, combine and create something new. Just as the Durga of the early classical period was changed into the Betari Durga of the wayang. Possibly you may care to open a new thread, so that the thread content will be relevent to the matter under discussion?

I recognise that the typical Javanese representation of Betari Durga since Kediri has incorporated Kali, however, I fail to see how this is material in the identification of the wadon handle as Durga.

In my earlier post I suggested several criteria that could be satisfied if we wish to demonstrate that this wadon handle is a representation of Durga.

In fact, I believe we should be willing to accept any evidence that this handle is a representation of Durga, provided that the evidence supplied is credible, objective and verifiable.Not just opinion.

[Andrew]

Gentlemen:

This comment is intended for the membership at large, and not to any particular individual.

Allow me to direct everyone's attention, once again, to this thread:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4

Please pay particular attention to this:

3. FLAMES, INSULTS, BIGOTRY & THREATS

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Keris threads, in particular, seem to be riddled with veiled insults, challenges and innuendo. Please don't participate in that fashion.

Thank you for your support.

Andrew

[Tim Simmons]

I really do not know anything thing about Indonesian weapons but have enjoyed this topic.This picture, Durga killing the buffalo demon at the temple of Siva, Loro Jonggrang, Prambanan, central Java ,along with other images throughout Asia show her with these many hand gestures.The one with the folded middle fingers must be the most important as this seems to be the only one shown on the handles ,all on the left hand, so I do not think it is damage or a fault in the wood but a diliberate detail.I could be very wrong Tim.

[nechesh]

Great pictures BluErf. That first ivory (?) Durga with the balls of fire being emitted from her mouth is just too cool.
I tend to agree that Cedric's Bali example might more likely be Nava Sari. The object held behind the back appears far too stiff to be meant as a vale and looks very much like a stylized grain sheaf. Compare to the obvious fabic material held in Blu's first example.
As for Jensen's method of dating, the major problem with it (aside from it's vagueness) is that the large majority of keris have NOT been collected by museums, so it only allows us to say that a very small precentage of keris are at least this old. Since i have yet to acquire a single keris in my collection from a museum source it is of little help to me in dating my own blades. I have been fortunate to acquire most of my blades from learned sources who have spent many decades researching and studying keris in order to determine age, style, etc. as best they can. Boedhi Adhitya is right to question Tangguh, but for unprovenenced keris it is still the best method available when understood and done correctly. Something i am certainly NOT very good at, but fortunately i have sources that i feel are much more knowledgable than i that i can trust.