No SLOROK / WOJO for keris sepuh??? Really???

Neo · 29th August 2010, 03:20 PM

Many thanks for the clarification, Mr. Maisey. As for now, I am more interested in recognizing an ORIGINAL keris from a fake one than in correctly putting a tangguh label on the keris. By original, I mean it may be a Budo, a sepuh, a nem, a kamardikan contemporary, or even an antique putran, but at least it's not a modern pretender made to fool collectors.

Prior to your answer, I had suspected that a sepuh keris is not supposed to have distinguishable slorok, no matter how subtle. So, based on this understanding, kerises that has Pajajaran features (high gandik, matching iron grains and pamor characteristics, among others), but then it after looking at the blade closely under strong lighting it has subtle different color tones indicating that it has a slorok, then that means the blade is either an antique retrofit (it was made in the past as a putran of an earlier style) or a modern pretender made from old material.

Perhaps I misinterpreted information from the following website: http://www.kerisdanuri.fotopic.net/c1655009.html

Many thanks for your answer.

A. G. Maisey · 29th August 2010, 09:49 PM

It is not yet 7am here, and in 20 minutes I'm off to Canberra to visit the National Gallery. Right now I do not have time to provide the comments needed from your last post. I'll try to get to this as soon as I can.

In the interim, could you oblige by letting us know where you are located?

Are you a native speaker of Indonesian?

Thanks.

Neo · 30th August 2010, 06:20 AM

Take your time. I'm sorry I just read this message on 1:20pm Bali time. I live in Bali and Indonesian is my native tongue. PM me if you need more info.
Thanks!

A. G. Maisey · 31st August 2010, 12:54 AM

Neo, prior to writing this response I have been back into the previous threads that you have contributed to, and I have read those threads.

I have looked at the site that is associated with the link you have provided in this current thread.

I have read the opinions of the owner of this site, and associated correspondence, which is to be found at :-

http://mykeris.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/memiliki-keris/

I am not going to get bogged down in discussion of the examples given in the link you have provided, however, I will say this:-

old keris of the Buda type almost never have a core; the concept of "old" in this context means prior to +/- 1300AD, however, this time estimate is very subject to the application of circular reasoning, so it is necessary to be as objective and as logical as possible

some keris of more recent periods also do not have a core

the presence or absence of a blade core in a keris of any period cannot be understood in isolation as an indicator of its age

I understand that your dominant desire in respect of keris knowledge is to be able to differentiate between genuine older blades, and blades that have been treated, or altered, in some way or another, with the intent to deceive a prospective buyer into the belief that the blade is something that it is not.

We have already given you a very comprehensive and accurate answer to this question. I would suggest a re-reading of this thread:-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12057

you will find the answers to your questions there.

In summary it is only possible to gain the knowledge you seek by long term experience and instruction from knowledgeable teachers with access to the requisite examples.Even this is no guarantee that you will never make a mistake.

Neo · 31st August 2010, 06:13 AM

Thanks for the reply, Mr. Maisey.

Yes, yes, the teacher issue. I've been working on it ...

Quote:

the presence or absence of a blade core in a keris of any period cannot be understood in isolation as an indicator of its age

This one sentence pretty much answers my question while at the same time makes me realize that I haven't progressed much in my quest

29th August 2010, 03:20 PM	#1
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Many thanks for the clarification, Mr. Maisey. As for now, I am more interested in recognizing an ORIGINAL keris from a fake one than in correctly putting a tangguh label on the keris. By original, I mean it may be a Budo, a sepuh, a nem, a kamardikan contemporary, or even an antique putran, but at least it's not a modern pretender made to fool collectors. Prior to your answer, I had suspected that a sepuh keris is not supposed to have distinguishable slorok, no matter how subtle. So, based on this understanding, kerises that has Pajajaran features (high gandik, matching iron grains and pamor characteristics, among others), but then it after looking at the blade closely under strong lighting it has subtle different color tones indicating that it has a slorok, then that means the blade is either an antique retrofit (it was made in the past as a putran of an earlier style) or a modern pretender made from old material. Perhaps I misinterpreted information from the following website: http://www.kerisdanuri.fotopic.net/c1655009.html Many thanks for your answer.

29th August 2010, 09:49 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	It is not yet 7am here, and in 20 minutes I'm off to Canberra to visit the National Gallery. Right now I do not have time to provide the comments needed from your last post. I'll try to get to this as soon as I can. In the interim, could you oblige by letting us know where you are located? Are you a native speaker of Indonesian? Thanks.

30th August 2010, 06:20 AM	#3
Neo Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 59	Take your time. I'm sorry I just read this message on 1:20pm Bali time. I live in Bali and Indonesian is my native tongue. PM me if you need more info. Thanks!

31st August 2010, 12:54 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	Neo, prior to writing this response I have been back into the previous threads that you have contributed to, and I have read those threads. I have looked at the site that is associated with the link you have provided in this current thread. I have read the opinions of the owner of this site, and associated correspondence, which is to be found at :- http://mykeris.wordpress.com/2007/10/03/memiliki-keris/ I am not going to get bogged down in discussion of the examples given in the link you have provided, however, I will say this:- old keris of the Buda type almost never have a core; the concept of "old" in this context means prior to +/- 1300AD, however, this time estimate is very subject to the application of circular reasoning, so it is necessary to be as objective and as logical as possible some keris of more recent periods also do not have a core the presence or absence of a blade core in a keris of any period cannot be understood in isolation as an indicator of its age I understand that your dominant desire in respect of keris knowledge is to be able to differentiate between genuine older blades, and blades that have been treated, or altered, in some way or another, with the intent to deceive a prospective buyer into the belief that the blade is something that it is not. We have already given you a very comprehensive and accurate answer to this question. I would suggest a re-reading of this thread:- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12057 you will find the answers to your questions there. In summary it is only possible to gain the knowledge you seek by long term experience and instruction from knowledgeable teachers with access to the requisite examples.Even this is no guarantee that you will never make a mistake.