Decoration on Indian hilts

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2005, 04:29 PM

Different from most! I should say so.Tim

Rick · 12th June 2005, 06:22 PM

That is most fascinating Jens . When the sword is held in the right hand the flowers face out from the palm of the hand .

If one was holding the flowers themselves this way ........ (thought trails off) .... but it is like one 'is' wielding the flower itself , meaning (possibly) that the flower is a talisman , not simply decoration .

Have I made any sense ?

Or just a fool of myself .

Jens Nordlunde · 12th June 2005, 09:40 PM

Rick, you are right on target if you ask me, the only problem for me is to find out what it means - still searching

.

Best Jens

Jim McDougall · 13th June 2005, 04:18 AM

Hi Jens,
As always, fantastic photos of beautiful weapons!!!! and this a topic that really needs research. I also think Rick is right on target, there is much more to the decorative motif on these weapons than just 'pretty flowers'. Much in the same way as many markings and symbolic motif on the blades of weapons, I strongly believe there are talismanic and amuletic values imbued in the decoration. It is known that flowers and various botanical forms carry important symbolism in the religion and superstitions of many cultural spheres, and we can but speculate on the possibility of intended meaning or value carried. Still, by viewing various hilts and associating the botanical motif categorically we might be able to work toward some plausible ideas on such possibilities.

Robert Elgood's new book on "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is one of the first books on arms and armour to subjectively discuss the anthropological perspective on weapons and as I have previously noted, to study ethnographic weapons in an effective manner. We already know the importance of botanicals in the smelting of wootz, now we must consider similarly thier importance aesthetically in the decoration of these weapons.

I am still puzzled by the depiction of lotuses with varying numbers of petals...it seems in Buddhism eight petals are particularly auspicious, but it seems some are depicted with less. Would Hindu interpretation of a lotus be with less petals? Also the chrysanthemum, which I always thought was Japanese...are these also part of the themes on tulwars?

I know you guys have lots of tulwars out there!!! Lets see the hilts....both from the side and the top view of the pommel .

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 13th June 2005, 02:16 PM

Thanks for the answers.
To show you what I mean you can have a look at this picture, it is not from a hilt, but from a blade, and it is of course a lotus.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th June 2005, 04:19 PM

Hi Jim,

Hendley, in Jaypore Enamels comments unfortunately only very sporatic about the flower decorations. He mentions some of the flowers used for decoration, like lotus, chrysanthemum Indicum, lily, rose, poppy and a few others, but he does not write anything about the meaning.

12th June 2005, 09:40 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rick, you are right on target if you ask me, the only problem for me is to find out what it means - still searching. Best Jens

13th June 2005, 02:16 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Thanks for the answers. To show you what I mean you can have a look at this picture, it is not from a hilt, but from a blade, and it is of course a lotus. Attached Images

12th June 2005, 04:29 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,855	Different from most! I should say so.Tim

12th June 2005, 06:22 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	That is most fascinating Jens . When the sword is held in the right hand the flowers face out from the palm of the hand . If one was holding the flowers themselves this way ........ (thought trails off) .... but it is like one 'is' wielding the flower itself , meaning (possibly) that the flower is a talisman , not simply decoration . Have I made any sense ? Or just a fool of myself .

13th June 2005, 04:18 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,282	Hi Jens, As always, fantastic photos of beautiful weapons!!!! and this a topic that really needs research. I also think Rick is right on target, there is much more to the decorative motif on these weapons than just 'pretty flowers'. Much in the same way as many markings and symbolic motif on the blades of weapons, I strongly believe there are talismanic and amuletic values imbued in the decoration. It is known that flowers and various botanical forms carry important symbolism in the religion and superstitions of many cultural spheres, and we can but speculate on the possibility of intended meaning or value carried. Still, by viewing various hilts and associating the botanical motif categorically we might be able to work toward some plausible ideas on such possibilities. Robert Elgood's new book on "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is one of the first books on arms and armour to subjectively discuss the anthropological perspective on weapons and as I have previously noted, to study ethnographic weapons in an effective manner. We already know the importance of botanicals in the smelting of wootz, now we must consider similarly thier importance aesthetically in the decoration of these weapons. I am still puzzled by the depiction of lotuses with varying numbers of petals...it seems in Buddhism eight petals are particularly auspicious, but it seems some are depicted with less. Would Hindu interpretation of a lotus be with less petals? Also the chrysanthemum, which I always thought was Japanese...are these also part of the themes on tulwars? I know you guys have lots of tulwars out there!!! Lets see the hilts....both from the side and the top view of the pommel . All the best, Jim

13th June 2005, 04:19 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, Hendley, in Jaypore Enamels comments unfortunately only very sporatic about the flower decorations. He mentions some of the flowers used for decoration, like lotus, chrysanthemum Indicum, lily, rose, poppy and a few others, but he does not write anything about the meaning.