19th century gothic dagger?

Ron Anderson · 29th August 2010, 02:04 PM

I can confirm there is a liner in the scabbard but it's not visible from the outside. There are two bits of wood - one on the front plate and one of the back, that help keep the blade snug when in the scabbard.

The scabbard itself is also copper and cast in two identical pieces - the back and front are the same, with the same design etc.

The seam on the scabbard is not all that strong. It would be easy to tear it apart, but then of course it is only copper.

Ron Anderson · 29th August 2010, 03:58 PM

It seems the mystery has been solved. It is a Dague Romantique. Thank you Dom.

It is a type of 19th century knife, very stylised, and often by prostitutes. A kind of prostitute knife with a fantasy twist.

Here's another one

http://www.clic-nature.fr/forum/topic2907.html

Ron Anderson · 29th August 2010, 04:05 PM

Here's another one

http://www.armesanciennes.fr/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%2Ftx_tem plavoila%2Fa180-5w.jpg&bodyTag=%3CBODY%20bgColor%3D%22black%22%3E& wrap=%3CA%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B% 22%3E%20|%20%3C%2FA%3E&md5=f43a07d122faca5303c05ff 670cda368

I'd say mine is a very good example. A+ indeed.

Thank you everyone for your assistance. I'm pretty convinced about this one. It is as I expected a 19th century piece. It may even be mid rather than late 19th century. It's almost certainly French, but there's a chance that it's English.

Ron Anderson · 29th August 2010, 04:10 PM

commercial link removed.

David · 30th August 2010, 03:39 PM

From what i can tell this category of "Dague Romantique" seems a bit vague, but i would say that your example seems to fit well within it. I would take the "carried by prostitutes" line with a grain of salt as so far i can only find that as a line from sellers to entice sale. Do you have an academic reference to this use. Here is a link to a similar style dagger (different figure and motif) that was claimed "satanic" in nature.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ack+notre+dame
Here are some examples of what i could find on the web also described as "Dague Romantique".

Ron Anderson · 31st August 2010, 02:56 AM

Hi David

Thanks for posting those pictures. The scabbards in particular mirror the style of my piece.

I think you're right – it is a rather vague category, probably created in hindsight. I doubt at the time anyone would have thought of these as "romantic daggers". They reflect the romanticism of that period, I think, and have been labelled that way to identify them broadly to collectors, and perhaps to separate them from later fantasy daggers.

I can only speculate that the reason they were carried by prostitutes is that they were quite pretty and quite dramatic. Mine is a bigger example, but the smaller ones were also obviously easy to conceal, so useful for that kind of work.

I believe the manufacturers of these knives found a ready market among prostitutes, but they were no doubt used more widely too. As Mark noted, probably as letter openers.

This is guesswork. I have no hard evidence of this.

It is interesting that they seem confined largely to France - in fact, to such a degree that collectors elsewhere don't even really know about them.

There are one or two English examples I know about. But the English always ended up imitating the French, didn't they?

Jim McDougall · 31st August 2010, 09:08 AM

This very intriguing looking dagger seems to me 'made in the 19th century style' of romantic theme or allegorical daggers of these times. The term 'romantic' derives from the Gothic themes and novels popular in the time, and one of the popular subjects in image was of course Notre Dame cathedral. The gargoyle figure corresponds to these representations of lurking evil which decorate parts of the cathedral, with these legendary creatures usually a dragonlike beast with batlike wings.

Other daggers of this type have been discussed (such as the spirited discussion David linked from 2007) in which the Notre Dame theme also occurs, and there seem to be other theme type daggers of the mid to latter 19th century which form basis for many of these 20th century interpretations, as well as many of the French associations.

The link to the macabre may derive from the theme daggers produced in 16th century, where the 'dance of death' allegory was from the book published by Hans Holbein (the younger) in Lyon, and applied to the decoration of these daggers.

While many of these daggers invoke a foreboding appearance that seems to inspire many to label them satanic, thinking that these might be examples of the athame daggers used ceremonally, and better termed 'occult', these seem to be simply interpretive examples of the earlier theme daggers.
It seems some of these have brought some pretty amazing results when sold, however typically they seem to have had early blades from other weapons which added support to interesting provenance...but still the stories along with some of these are apocryphal at best.
The mention of fraternal and secret societies is well placed, and often unusual themed accoutrements have been used in all manner of regalia, so these kinds of attribution always have a degree of plausibility......by thier very nature though, research is pretty difficult

Still, these are intriguing in appearance and interesting pieces, always great for conversation!!

29th August 2010, 04:10 PM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	commercial link removed. Last edited by fernando; 29th August 2010 at 09:31 PM.

30th August 2010, 03:39 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,218	From what i can tell this category of "Dague Romantique" seems a bit vague, but i would say that your example seems to fit well within it. I would take the "carried by prostitutes" line with a grain of salt as so far i can only find that as a line from sellers to entice sale. Do you have an academic reference to this use. Here is a link to a similar style dagger (different figure and motif) that was claimed "satanic" in nature. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ack+notre+dame Here are some examples of what i could find on the web also described as "Dague Romantique". Attached Images

29th August 2010, 02:04 PM	#1
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I can confirm there is a liner in the scabbard but it's not visible from the outside. There are two bits of wood - one on the front plate and one of the back, that help keep the blade snug when in the scabbard. The scabbard itself is also copper and cast in two identical pieces - the back and front are the same, with the same design etc. The seam on the scabbard is not all that strong. It would be easy to tear it apart, but then of course it is only copper.

29th August 2010, 03:58 PM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	It seems the mystery has been solved. It is a Dague Romantique. Thank you Dom. It is a type of 19th century knife, very stylised, and often by prostitutes. A kind of prostitute knife with a fantasy twist. Here's another one http://www.clic-nature.fr/forum/topic2907.html

29th August 2010, 04:05 PM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Here's another one http://www.armesanciennes.fr/index.php?eID=tx_cms_showpic&file=uploads%2Ftx_tem plavoila%2Fa180-5w.jpg&bodyTag=%3CBODY%20bgColor%3D%22black%22%3E& wrap=%3CA%20href%3D%22javascript%3Aclose%28%29%3B% 22%3E%20\|%20%3C%2FA%3E&md5=f43a07d122faca5303c05ff 670cda368 I'd say mine is a very good example. A+ indeed. Thank you everyone for your assistance. I'm pretty convinced about this one. It is as I expected a 19th century piece. It may even be mid rather than late 19th century. It's almost certainly French, but there's a chance that it's English.

31st August 2010, 02:56 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi David Thanks for posting those pictures. The scabbards in particular mirror the style of my piece. I think you're right – it is a rather vague category, probably created in hindsight. I doubt at the time anyone would have thought of these as "romantic daggers". They reflect the romanticism of that period, I think, and have been labelled that way to identify them broadly to collectors, and perhaps to separate them from later fantasy daggers. I can only speculate that the reason they were carried by prostitutes is that they were quite pretty and quite dramatic. Mine is a bigger example, but the smaller ones were also obviously easy to conceal, so useful for that kind of work. I believe the manufacturers of these knives found a ready market among prostitutes, but they were no doubt used more widely too. As Mark noted, probably as letter openers. This is guesswork. I have no hard evidence of this. It is interesting that they seem confined largely to France - in fact, to such a degree that collectors elsewhere don't even really know about them. There are one or two English examples I know about. But the English always ended up imitating the French, didn't they?

31st August 2010, 09:08 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	This very intriguing looking dagger seems to me 'made in the 19th century style' of romantic theme or allegorical daggers of these times. The term 'romantic' derives from the Gothic themes and novels popular in the time, and one of the popular subjects in image was of course Notre Dame cathedral. The gargoyle figure corresponds to these representations of lurking evil which decorate parts of the cathedral, with these legendary creatures usually a dragonlike beast with batlike wings. Other daggers of this type have been discussed (such as the spirited discussion David linked from 2007) in which the Notre Dame theme also occurs, and there seem to be other theme type daggers of the mid to latter 19th century which form basis for many of these 20th century interpretations, as well as many of the French associations. The link to the macabre may derive from the theme daggers produced in 16th century, where the 'dance of death' allegory was from the book published by Hans Holbein (the younger) in Lyon, and applied to the decoration of these daggers. While many of these daggers invoke a foreboding appearance that seems to inspire many to label them satanic, thinking that these might be examples of the athame daggers used ceremonally, and better termed 'occult', these seem to be simply interpretive examples of the earlier theme daggers. It seems some of these have brought some pretty amazing results when sold, however typically they seem to have had early blades from other weapons which added support to interesting provenance...but still the stories along with some of these are apocryphal at best. The mention of fraternal and secret societies is well placed, and often unusual themed accoutrements have been used in all manner of regalia, so these kinds of attribution always have a degree of plausibility......by thier very nature though, research is pretty difficult Still, these are intriguing in appearance and interesting pieces, always great for conversation!!