Next keris from Polish Museum

mhm27 · 11th June 2005, 03:46 PM

im new with this but what i`ve seen is absolutely beautiful and blending of the blade colour is undescribable.....wish i was into keris collection earlier

Rick · 11th June 2005, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mhm27

im new with this but what i`ve seen is absolutely beautiful and blending of the blade colour is undescribable.....wish i was into keris collection earlier

If you don't mind a fair amount of reading you may find this thread from the old forum enlightening .

Part I
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html
PartII
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html

nechesh · 11th June 2005, 04:16 PM

Kai Wee makes very good points about the greneng profile and i believe he is correct that this is an older piece. Thanks for all those pictures.

I would still stick to Javanese origin.
Even without seeing the pamor clearly it is certain that this is a very nice old blade. You should have the museum commission a sheath for it. It is well deserving of one.

mhm27 · 14th June 2005, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

If you don't mind a fair amount of reading you may find this thread from the old forum enlightening .

Part I
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000307.html
PartII
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000402.html

Hi rick,

thanks for the link and it was a great forum from the past and it`s more energy in the discussion form the seniors ha.....thanks again

tuancd · 14th June 2005, 03:52 PM

Hi! everyone

Thank you Boedhi for all the precisions you gave us. I sincerely hope to be able to read you more.

Just to mention, Sier (pronounce Sayer) Jensen, whose a good friend, is a Danish University historian. It's a shame is book has not yet been completely translated into English (just a small part of it included in the book) and it makes it difficult to understand. Not everybody speaks Danish.

Never the less, his book is great and his method the best. To date kriss, he has no method, he just read the inventory of the museum and says that if they entered the museum at a recorded date then they must have been forged before. Some other people used the same method to date Japanese suits of armour.

That's why we all have something to learn from his book.

I'll come back later to talk about the marvellous south east Javanese Durga that we have here.

wolviex · 14th June 2005, 05:28 PM

Boedhi Adhitya: thank you for your most informative post. I will join to the others with hope of leraning more from you in the future.

It's almost unbelievably, that making of keris handle is so difficult, and you that can't imitate it easily. I'm writing this, because if someone could imitate (let's think up)... Mona Lisa, why not ukiran. This is provocative question, because I'm wondering, do you mean literally only the surface of the handle, or there are some other features which are decisive on handle uniqueness. Sorry if this question is too much ignorant

.

Second question - in the light of your words about uniquess of the ukirans, are there any thoughts you have about my keris' handle? Or, i.e., is it so unusual, as we decided it, that there is no chance to identify it more properly?

tuancd: that method you have mentioned is really great...well, almost...sometimes

. In my case, it doesn't work properly

tuancd · 14th June 2005, 07:14 PM

Dear Wolviex

Yes the method is good but can only work when the piece is registered for a long time...
In your case you can only work by comparison. But the books like Sier's give that opportunity.
Experts in datation start to be able to date metal by analysis of the crystallisation on the surface. It is still expensive and I'm not yet convinced of their accuracy .
For the model of ukiran you have, yes it's rare. And your model is quite refine. For comparison I'll attach picture of mine.
It's identity is Veiled Durga from East java. Durga beautiful before was punished and became ugly. So she wore a veil in order not to scare humans. You can actually see her unveiled on Bali, holding the veil in her back (see under).
This local adaptation of Durga life is to be compared with the cult of Nyai Loro Kidul or Nyi roro Kidul (goddess of the south sea worshiped in Java) who is also ugly or beautiful.

Any ways, the three Durga veiled I've seen were on east Javanese kriss.
Cedric

nechesh · 14th June 2005, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuancd

Never the less, his book is great and his method the best. To date kriss, he has no method, he just read the inventory of the museum and says that if they entered the museum at a recorded date then they must have been forged before. Some other people used the same method to date Japanese suits of armour.

That's why we all have something to learn from his book.

Sorry Cedric, but i just can't comprehend how this could possible be the best method of dating. Say a Javanese keris is collected in the early part of the 19thC but is in fact a Keris Mojopahit from the 14thC. To say then that this keris is older than the 19thC, while correct, tells us very little about the blade.

Thank you, BTW, for posting the photos of the other Durga hilts. Seeing these first two clearly point out the subtlties in the carving of Wolviex's example, though i am sure the ivory is a much harder material to work in. Still, the flow of lines is much more dynamic and well proportioned than your examples. I wonder if the hand on the other side of your examples have the same foreshortened middle fingers???

tuancd · 15th June 2005, 12:01 AM

Dear Nechesh,

museums in Europe have started from the 14th century and even before. Of course, and unfortunately, inventories don't come back to that date and more over regarding keris.

nevertheless and since we talk of Durga hulus there are two of them, one from the General Wrangler Samling collection (first traced) in 1676 (p 87 of Den Indonenesiske kris of Seir Jensen) the second and more known, Durga hilt made of rhinoceros horn and decorated with gold and rubies (first traced 1618; Der Deutsche Orden in Vienna) (One of the first inventories that we know with out doubt so far).
So you are absolutely right, you say no one can confirm it is from 14th century. At least I can say it is at least from 14th (ref Candi Suku) to end of 16th. I even can bet on it

for the second aspect here are the pictures.
the wooden one is also used and slightly damage on the hand. I suppose it is due to a hurting of a stronger material, but it can also be the wear of the thumb
The ivory one is obviously much later 19th or early 20th c, I would say and cannot be compared.

I’ll try to scan the pictures of the book to show the Durgas from Sier’s book I’m talking about.

14th June 2005, 07:14 PM	#7
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Dear Wolviex Yes the method is good but can only work when the piece is registered for a long time... In your case you can only work by comparison. But the books like Sier's give that opportunity. Experts in datation start to be able to date metal by analysis of the crystallisation on the surface. It is still expensive and I'm not yet convinced of their accuracy . For the model of ukiran you have, yes it's rare. And your model is quite refine. For comparison I'll attach picture of mine. It's identity is Veiled Durga from East java. Durga beautiful before was punished and became ugly. So she wore a veil in order not to scare humans. You can actually see her unveiled on Bali, holding the veil in her back (see under). This local adaptation of Durga life is to be compared with the cult of Nyai Loro Kidul or Nyi roro Kidul (goddess of the south sea worshiped in Java) who is also ugly or beautiful. Any ways, the three Durga veiled I've seen were on east Javanese kriss. Cedric Attached Images

15th June 2005, 12:01 AM	#9
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Dear Nechesh, museums in Europe have started from the 14th century and even before. Of course, and unfortunately, inventories don't come back to that date and more over regarding keris. nevertheless and since we talk of Durga hulus there are two of them, one from the General Wrangler Samling collection (first traced) in 1676 (p 87 of Den Indonenesiske kris of Seir Jensen) the second and more known, Durga hilt made of rhinoceros horn and decorated with gold and rubies (first traced 1618; Der Deutsche Orden in Vienna) (One of the first inventories that we know with out doubt so far). So you are absolutely right, you say no one can confirm it is from 14th century. At least I can say it is at least from 14th (ref Candi Suku) to end of 16th. I even can bet on it for the second aspect here are the pictures. the wooden one is also used and slightly damage on the hand. I suppose it is due to a hurting of a stronger material, but it can also be the wear of the thumb The ivory one is obviously much later 19th or early 20th c, I would say and cannot be compared. I’ll try to scan the pictures of the book to show the Durgas from Sier’s book I’m talking about. Attached Images

11th June 2005, 03:46 PM	#1
mhm27 Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: singapore Posts: 8	im new with this but what i`ve seen is absolutely beautiful and blending of the blade colour is undescribable.....wish i was into keris collection earlier

11th June 2005, 04:16 PM	#3
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Kai Wee makes very good points about the greneng profile and i believe he is correct that this is an older piece. Thanks for all those pictures. I would still stick to Javanese origin. Even without seeing the pamor clearly it is certain that this is a very nice old blade. You should have the museum commission a sheath for it. It is well deserving of one.

14th June 2005, 03:52 PM	#5
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Hi! everyone Thank you Boedhi for all the precisions you gave us. I sincerely hope to be able to read you more. Just to mention, Sier (pronounce Sayer) Jensen, whose a good friend, is a Danish University historian. It's a shame is book has not yet been completely translated into English (just a small part of it included in the book) and it makes it difficult to understand. Not everybody speaks Danish. Never the less, his book is great and his method the best. To date kriss, he has no method, he just read the inventory of the museum and says that if they entered the museum at a recorded date then they must have been forged before. Some other people used the same method to date Japanese suits of armour. That's why we all have something to learn from his book. I'll come back later to talk about the marvellous south east Javanese Durga that we have here.

14th June 2005, 05:28 PM	#6
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Boedhi Adhitya: thank you for your most informative post. I will join to the others with hope of leraning more from you in the future. It's almost unbelievably, that making of keris handle is so difficult, and you that can't imitate it easily. I'm writing this, because if someone could imitate (let's think up)... Mona Lisa, why not ukiran. This is provocative question, because I'm wondering, do you mean literally only the surface of the handle, or there are some other features which are decisive on handle uniqueness. Sorry if this question is too much ignorant . Second question - in the light of your words about uniquess of the ukirans, are there any thoughts you have about my keris' handle? Or, i.e., is it so unusual, as we decided it, that there is no chance to identify it more properly? tuancd: that method you have mentioned is really great...well, almost...sometimes . In my case, it doesn't work properly