1796 L.C. Officers Sword.

Norman McCormick · 9th August 2010, 06:32 PM

Hi Ian,
Thanks for your interest. With regard to the damage you may well be right. The nicks are located all along the blade the deepest being at the hilt end. The muck and rust was consistent throughout including in the nicks, however the abuse could have been perpetrated when the sword was in a reasonable condition and before it was dumped in a garage and left to rot. There was another sword associated with this one i.e. in a similar state from the same garage. Although the type was of little interest to me I did check this blade for damage the assumption being that 'little boys and big boys' like to spar with swords 'like they do in the movies'. There was no blade damage to this second sword so I reckoned these two had not been 'played with' at least not with each other. I have not handled many provenanced battlefield swords so I cannot honestly say whether the damage to this sword is definitely from use or abuse. This dubiety puts me in a bit of a quandary, restore or not? If the damage is contemporary with its working life I would leave well alone if not the temptation is there to replace the guard and find a scabbard? I would be interested in Forum members thinking on the 'use or abuse' and the 'restore or not' questions. Ian you mentioned that you have a similar sword, any chance of a few photographs?
My Regards,
Norman.

Ian Knight · 10th August 2010, 10:58 AM

Hello Norman,
To have the sabre professionally restored would cost a lot of money, probably into three figures.
You could restore it youself however by sourcing the parts, disassembling the sabre and fitting the new parts. You should be able to use the knucklebow from any P1796 Officer's sabre as this doesn't have the faceted finish used on the backpiece and ferrule.
If you do consider the sabre to have sustained the damage in 'action' I would remove any corrosion, protect the sword using Renaissance Wax and leave as is.
My P1796 officer's sabre.

Ian

Norman McCormick · 10th August 2010, 08:44 PM

Hi Ian,
Thanks for posting your sabre, a very nice example. As regards restoration it's one of those things 'do you or don't you'? In this case I think the damage I would cause to the peened tang and the 'ear' rivet in disassembly is not worth the aesthetics of a replacement guard. I will call it 'old' damage as it certainly hasn't been done in recent times and be satisfied with that. If a scabbard happens to come along at some time I don't see a problem with a marriage, mismatches re swords and scabbards seem the norm rather than the exception anyway. If you happen to know of a lonely scabbard you know where to get me.

My Regards.
Norman.

Emanuel · 17th August 2010, 01:27 AM

Hello,

Here's another Osborn 1796 LC officer's sword. It has suffered a bit of damage to the quillon and the engraving is worn off. It still has "Osborn Warranted" etched in one of the panels. I was surprised by how relatively light this sabre feels. I have a some tulwar that feel quite a bit heavier.

Emanuel

Norman McCormick · 17th August 2010, 08:10 PM

Hi Emanuel,
Thanks for posting your example. I agree that they are light sabres, no Jedi jokes please, and I wonder if the troopers version is as well balanced. Maybe Ian would care to comment on this as he has both types, it's a long time since I have had both kinds in my possession so I'm not able to make a proper judgement. Regarding Tulwars, I have one which I would say is as well balanced but not quite as light, having said that I don't have any Tulwars of really good quality so I wouldn't like to make any direct comparisons. Thanks again.
My Regards,
Norman.

Richard · 18th August 2010, 02:29 PM

I hope you guys don't mind me coming in on this debate?

Norman McCormick · 18th August 2010, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

I hope you guys don't mind me coming in on this debate?

Hi Richard,
No problem, the more the merrier.

The assertion that the faceted faces was solely an Osborn design feature was mine I'm afraid. I was under the impression that this was the case but I defer knowing your experience is much greater that mine when it comes to Napoleonic era swords. Were there several makers who copied this design? With regard to the 'abuse v use' question, this would appear to be quite subjective and very difficult to quantify. I think that real battlefield attributable swords are not that thick on the ground, although you wouldn't think so when reading descriptions on a well known internet auction site, and therefore the signs, or not, of genuine 'battle damage' is quite a difficult thing to ascertain with any real precision. Whether my sword has been the subject of 'abuse or use' will unfortunately, I suppose, have to remain an opinion only. This dubiety, to my mind, impinges greatly on the next question 'restore or not'. The restored sword you posted would appear to have been a composite brought back to its original configuration. Was the infantry guard a period or modern marriage? If it was a period addition/replacement some people may view it as part of the history attached to the sword and as such should be left as is. Regardless of anyones views on this subject the hilt restoration on your example is artfully done and has resulted in a really nice sword. On another subject, do you have any views on the wieldable aspects of the officers swords versus the troopers version? We're a relaxed lot here so please come in on any subject at any time, the bigger the input the more interesting it gets.

My Regards,
Norman.

Richard · 18th August 2010, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ian,
Thanks for posting your sabre, a very nice example. As regards restoration it's one of those things 'do you or don't you'? In this case I think the damage I would cause to the peened tang and the 'ear' rivet in disassembly is not worth the aesthetics of a replacement guard. I will call it 'old' damage as it certainly hasn't been done in recent times and be satisfied with that. If a scabbard happens to come along at some time I don't see a problem with a marriage, mismatches re swords and scabbards seem the norm rather than the exception anyway. If you happen to know of a lonely scabbard you know where to get me.

My Regards.
Norman.

Ah, the big question - to restore or not! Personally I would but others will have different views. Here's a sword of the 1st Bombay cavalry I restored earlier

Top : Before
Bottom : After

10th August 2010, 10:58 AM	#2
Ian Knight Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: East Sussex, England. Posts: 103	Hello Norman, To have the sabre professionally restored would cost a lot of money, probably into three figures. You could restore it youself however by sourcing the parts, disassembling the sabre and fitting the new parts. You should be able to use the knucklebow from any P1796 Officer's sabre as this doesn't have the faceted finish used on the backpiece and ferrule. If you do consider the sabre to have sustained the damage in 'action' I would remove any corrosion, protect the sword using Renaissance Wax and leave as is. My P1796 officer's sabre. Ian Attached Images Last edited by Ian Knight; 10th August 2010 at 03:16 PM.

17th August 2010, 01:27 AM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Here's another Osborn 1796 LC officer's sword. It has suffered a bit of damage to the quillon and the engraving is worn off. It still has "Osborn Warranted" etched in one of the panels. I was surprised by how relatively light this sabre feels. I have a some tulwar that feel quite a bit heavier. Emanuel Attached Images

9th August 2010, 06:32 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Ian, Thanks for your interest. With regard to the damage you may well be right. The nicks are located all along the blade the deepest being at the hilt end. The muck and rust was consistent throughout including in the nicks, however the abuse could have been perpetrated when the sword was in a reasonable condition and before it was dumped in a garage and left to rot. There was another sword associated with this one i.e. in a similar state from the same garage. Although the type was of little interest to me I did check this blade for damage the assumption being that 'little boys and big boys' like to spar with swords 'like they do in the movies'. There was no blade damage to this second sword so I reckoned these two had not been 'played with' at least not with each other. I have not handled many provenanced battlefield swords so I cannot honestly say whether the damage to this sword is definitely from use or abuse. This dubiety puts me in a bit of a quandary, restore or not? If the damage is contemporary with its working life I would leave well alone if not the temptation is there to replace the guard and find a scabbard? I would be interested in Forum members thinking on the 'use or abuse' and the 'restore or not' questions. Ian you mentioned that you have a similar sword, any chance of a few photographs? My Regards, Norman.

10th August 2010, 08:44 PM	#3
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Ian, Thanks for posting your sabre, a very nice example. As regards restoration it's one of those things 'do you or don't you'? In this case I think the damage I would cause to the peened tang and the 'ear' rivet in disassembly is not worth the aesthetics of a replacement guard. I will call it 'old' damage as it certainly hasn't been done in recent times and be satisfied with that. If a scabbard happens to come along at some time I don't see a problem with a marriage, mismatches re swords and scabbards seem the norm rather than the exception anyway. If you happen to know of a lonely scabbard you know where to get me. My Regards. Norman.

17th August 2010, 08:10 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,618	Hi Emanuel, Thanks for posting your example. I agree that they are light sabres, no Jedi jokes please, and I wonder if the troopers version is as well balanced. Maybe Ian would care to comment on this as he has both types, it's a long time since I have had both kinds in my possession so I'm not able to make a proper judgement. Regarding Tulwars, I have one which I would say is as well balanced but not quite as light, having said that I don't have any Tulwars of really good quality so I wouldn't like to make any direct comparisons. Thanks again. My Regards, Norman.

18th August 2010, 02:29 PM	#6
Richard Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Aquae Sulis, UK Posts: 46	I hope you guys don't mind me coming in on this debate?