Wheellock musket

Matchlock · 25th July 2010, 06:09 PM

Hi Cylord,

This is not a military musket but the remnants of a ca. 1760 East German or Polish wheel-lock short hunting rifle (German Stutzen); the horn inlay in the stock might be original, then it's Silesian. Most probably though it's a 19th century 'embellishing' work.

The lock is of the plainest and latest form, with some elements missing from the left inside - see screw holes! The trigger is a crude replacement. As it is a rifle, it must have had a set trigger which is also missing now. The fore end is broken off, and so is the ramrod finial.

I would not even touch it, to be honest, but then, my fellow forum members know that my standards are strict and uncompromising. This does not have to be true for everybody - to each his own!

Best,
Michael

Fernando K · 25th July 2010, 10:30 PM

Google translation ... and not only :

Hello everyone:

I live in Argentina, and i do not know english. I can only say that this is a child's rifle, for some important person, to be tought how to handle a firearm. The short barrel confirms this. There are a few specimens in some museums.

Affectionately. Fernando

Original Spanish:
Hola a todos:

Resido en Argentina, y no sé inglés. Solamente puedo decir que este es un rifle de niño, para algún personaje importante, para enseñar a manejar un arma de fuego. El corto cañón así lo certifica. Hay en los museos algunos ejemplares.

Afectuosamente. Fernando

Matchlock · 27th July 2010, 06:50 PM

Sorry, Fernando K,

This is by no means a rifle made for a child; if so it would not only have a short barrel but all other proportions, lock and stock, would be smaller as well. They, however, are of average adult size.

It is, as I said, a Stutzen for huntig in underwood, as they are still built today.

Best,
Michael

cylord21 · 1st August 2010, 02:52 AM

Sorry for the late answer.
Un saludo Fernando thanks for the wellcome.

Michael, certainly it is a hunting rifle, i could figure it out for the animals engraved on the inlay. What i don't know is if the term musket is use only for military and rifle for hunting ?.

. Is there something to look for or a way to know if inlay is original or later embellisment please let me know. As for the holes on the left side of the lock, one is for the screw to attach lock to stock, the other one i don't know what it stand for, but not for a transmission chain as this is not a self spanning wheellock. The trigger is not a trigger, it is a piece o small diameter rod flatten on one end and screw it through a hole to the inside of the stock. The broken fore end has been smooth out but up to a point as to not to interfere with inlay work (later embellisment work?). There are other broken parts like both ramrod holder, one is almost completely missing and the fore end one is only half (both were done using same material as inlay, bone), it has also some stock repairs. Can you tell what does the sliding piece of the stock and its compartement/hole is for. My compliments to your knowledge and following strict standards is the way to go, thanks.

Fernando K, michael is correct the rifle is short but heavy and the stock is too big for a boy's hand to properly reach and pull the trigger, saludos.

Vicente

Matchlock · 1st August 2010, 09:46 PM

Hi Vicente,

I do hope to be able and comprehensively reply to your demanding questions.

1. A musket is tradionally a heavy military (non-decorated) gun; the term seems to have arisen in the mid 16th century and probably goes back to the Spanish term mosquito for the stinging insect and soon became especially synonymous of the 'sting' of a hot lead ball.
So there generally are a few basic criteria for defining a true military musket:

- long and heavy (meaning ca. 156-170 cm and 7-10 kg from ca. 1560 to 1620, and ca. 140-150 cm and 4-5 kg from ca. 1625-1680); these data are valid for both matchlock and wheel-lock muskets

- usually without decoration, apart from a short time span between ca. 1590 and 1618 when some high quality Suhl and Swiss muskets were delivered with ornamentally carved stocks

- barrel never rifled!

2. The definition of whether any kind of restoration or embellishment has been carried out at some later than the working time requires close and intense studies which take decades - meaning that you either have to trust a serious expert or take some hazardous adventures. Sorry but it's just as easy as that.

3. The butt trap, the cover of which may be a later addition on 'your' rifle, originally was not a 'patch box' like on Kentucky rifles but usually contained either reserve lead balls (the rests of grayish color can often be seen) or accoutermens like a spanner or cleaning tools like a scourer and worm.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 1st August 2010, 11:45 PM

Hi Michl,

... pardon my curiousity

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... the term seems to have arisen in the mid 16th century and probably goes back to the Spanish term mosquito for the stinging insect and soon became especially synonymous for the 'sting' of a hot lead ball....

Can you locate the source of these asumptions?
I heard of a somehow distinct explanation for the term, apparently a solid one but ... we never know

'Nando

Matchlock · 2nd August 2010, 12:54 AM

Hi 'Nando,

Exactly: we never know.

That's why I embedded my argument in a careful phrase: it's the result of many years of reading and I believe remembering that the statemets are based on opinions by Arne Hoff and John F. Hayward.

Anyway, I'll try and look 'em up but would be equally thankful of any suggestion and criticism from your side.

I know a bit of those things but I am certainly not the pope of the subject. Any decisive uttering on that early and little documented topic is, in my opinion, quite brave.

My dear friend, please do assist my learning and I will be extremely grateful to you as well as to anybody else. Ain't this the most important reason of posting and discussing here anyhow: adding and learning from each other?

Please be patient on me, amigo. The range I've been trying to cover for more than three decades is difficult and consequently demanding enough. I guess I tried to state in one of my first posts after being invited to our forum that most parts of the field I've been trying to plow still are, and in all probability will, sorta 'virgin'.

I would, in each case, be happy to learn about the interpretation you got as a kind of neighboring native speaker!

Thanks a lot and best wishes,
Michl

Fernando K · 26th July 2010, 03:03 PM

Hola a todos:

Resido en Argentina, y perdonarán que no escribo en inglés.

Este no es un rifle corto de caza, sino un rifle para niño (boy`s rifle). El largo del cañón así lo certifica. Si hacemos una reproducción a escala, veremos que no es un rifle con un cañon corto, sino que todo está en proporciones, con una culata menor que lo común.

Como bien ha dicho Matchlock, le falta el cubrecazoleta (cover-pan), su leva y su resorte.

Afectuosamente

Fernando Keilty
Argentina

PD: Escribo este post por segunda vez. No sé que ha pasado, pero no se publicó.

25th July 2010, 06:09 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cylord, This is not a military musket but the remnants of a ca. 1760 East German or Polish wheel-lock short hunting rifle (German Stutzen); the horn inlay in the stock might be original, then it's Silesian. Most probably though it's a 19th century 'embellishing' work. The lock is of the plainest and latest form, with some elements missing from the left inside - see screw holes! The trigger is a crude replacement. As it is a rifle, it must have had a set trigger which is also missing now. The fore end is broken off, and so is the ramrod finial. I would not even touch it, to be honest, but then, my fellow forum members know that my standards are strict and uncompromising. This does not have to be true for everybody - to each his own! Best, Michael Last edited by Jim McDougall; 27th July 2010 at 06:55 AM.

25th July 2010, 10:30 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 672	Google translation ... and not only : Hello everyone: I live in Argentina, and i do not know english. I can only say that this is a child's rifle, for some important person, to be tought how to handle a firearm. The short barrel confirms this. There are a few specimens in some museums. Affectionately. Fernando Original Spanish: Hola a todos: Resido en Argentina, y no sé inglés. Solamente puedo decir que este es un rifle de niño, para algún personaje importante, para enseñar a manejar un arma de fuego. El corto cañón así lo certifica. Hay en los museos algunos ejemplares. Afectuosamente. Fernando Last edited by fernando; 27th July 2010 at 05:08 PM.

1st August 2010, 09:46 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Vicente, I do hope to be able and comprehensively reply to your demanding questions. 1. A musket is tradionally a heavy military (non-decorated) gun; the term seems to have arisen in the mid 16th century and probably goes back to the Spanish term mosquito for the stinging insect and soon became especially synonymous of the 'sting' of a hot lead ball. So there generally are a few basic criteria for defining a true military musket: - long and heavy (meaning ca. 156-170 cm and 7-10 kg from ca. 1560 to 1620, and ca. 140-150 cm and 4-5 kg from ca. 1625-1680); these data are valid for both matchlock and wheel-lock muskets - usually without decoration, apart from a short time span between ca. 1590 and 1618 when some high quality Suhl and Swiss muskets were delivered with ornamentally carved stocks - barrel never rifled! 2. The definition of whether any kind of restoration or embellishment has been carried out at some later than the working time requires close and intense studies which take decades - meaning that you either have to trust a serious expert or take some hazardous adventures. Sorry but it's just as easy as that. 3. The butt trap, the cover of which may be a later addition on 'your' rifle, originally was not a 'patch box' like on Kentucky rifles but usually contained either reserve lead balls (the rests of grayish color can often be seen) or accoutermens like a spanner or cleaning tools like a scourer and worm. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 2nd August 2010 at 12:25 AM.

27th July 2010, 06:50 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Sorry, Fernando K, This is by no means a rifle made for a child; if so it would not only have a short barrel but all other proportions, lock and stock, would be smaller as well. They, however, are of average adult size. It is, as I said, a Stutzen for huntig in underwood, as they are still built today. Best, Michael

1st August 2010, 02:52 AM	#4
cylord21 Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Caracas - Venezuela Posts: 15	Sorry for the late answer. Un saludo Fernando thanks for the wellcome. Michael, certainly it is a hunting rifle, i could figure it out for the animals engraved on the inlay. What i don't know is if the term musket is use only for military and rifle for hunting ?. . Is there something to look for or a way to know if inlay is original or later embellisment please let me know. As for the holes on the left side of the lock, one is for the screw to attach lock to stock, the other one i don't know what it stand for, but not for a transmission chain as this is not a self spanning wheellock. The trigger is not a trigger, it is a piece o small diameter rod flatten on one end and screw it through a hole to the inside of the stock. The broken fore end has been smooth out but up to a point as to not to interfere with inlay work (later embellisment work?). There are other broken parts like both ramrod holder, one is almost completely missing and the fore end one is only half (both were done using same material as inlay, bone), it has also some stock repairs. Can you tell what does the sliding piece of the stock and its compartement/hole is for. My compliments to your knowledge and following strict standards is the way to go, thanks. Fernando K, michael is correct the rifle is short but heavy and the stock is too big for a boy's hand to properly reach and pull the trigger, saludos. Vicente

2nd August 2010, 12:54 AM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando, Exactly: we never know. That's why I embedded my argument in a careful phrase: it's the result of many years of reading and I believe remembering that the statemets are based on opinions by Arne Hoff and John F. Hayward. Anyway, I'll try and look 'em up but would be equally thankful of any suggestion and criticism from your side. I know a bit of those things but I am certainly not the pope of the subject. Any decisive uttering on that early and little documented topic is, in my opinion, quite brave. My dear friend, please do assist my learning and I will be extremely grateful to you as well as to anybody else. Ain't this the most important reason of posting and discussing here anyhow: adding and learning from each other? Please be patient on me, amigo. The range I've been trying to cover for more than three decades is difficult and consequently demanding enough. I guess I tried to state in one of my first posts after being invited to our forum that most parts of the field I've been trying to plow still are, and in all probability will, sorta 'virgin'. I would, in each case, be happy to learn about the interpretation you got as a kind of neighboring native speaker! Thanks a lot and best wishes, Michl

26th July 2010, 03:03 PM	#8
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 672	Hola a todos: Resido en Argentina, y perdonarán que no escribo en inglés. Este no es un rifle corto de caza, sino un rifle para niño (boy`s rifle). El largo del cañón así lo certifica. Si hacemos una reproducción a escala, veremos que no es un rifle con un cañon corto, sino que todo está en proporciones, con una culata menor que lo común. Como bien ha dicho Matchlock, le falta el cubrecazoleta (cover-pan), su leva y su resorte. Afectuosamente Fernando Keilty Argentina PD: Escribo este post por segunda vez. No sé que ha pasado, pero no se publicó.