Early Pandor Yataghan sabre??

ariel · 22nd July 2010, 11:01 PM

Dora Boskovic in her book about Yataghans in the collection of the State Muzeum in Zagreb writes that the famous memoires of Baron Franjo von Trent (1711-1749, unit established allegedly in 1743) were a later forgery. Also, using European imid-18-th century iconography of travels through the Balkans with sketches of the exotically-looking locals with their even more exotic weapons, there is not a single yataghan in sight until at least end of 18th century. Thus, she doubts ( or dismisses altogether) the idea of von Trent arming his pandours with yataghans.

I also have my antennae twitching: something is not right about this yataghan, for the same reasons outlined earlier by others. The quality of the blade can be judged only by the current owner, but I cannot believe that any actual yataghan user would have put the handle backwards!
I also do not enjoy passing bad news, sorry....

Dmitry · 22nd July 2010, 11:37 PM

Here is a Pandur combination sword-pistol from the book by J.LUGOSI - KARDOK.
It has a yataghan-like blade, which he dates to the 1700s.

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2010, 12:39 AM

The excellent book by Ms. Boskovic seems to be an outstanding reference, and I wish I had a copy! It is interesting about the reference to Baron von Trencks memoires being a forgery, but as sensationalized as his case was in the times it does not seem surprising that such things would occur.

What are a matter of well established and documented fact are the descriptions of the exploits of his units of pandours, which as noted were disbanded in 1749 as he was imprisoned. It is important to note that these troops under his command were assembled from mercenaries that were comprised of numerous ethnic groups from various regions. They were an essentially privately assembled force of irregular troops who obviously would have used thier own weapons, though acting as auxiliaries for the Imperial Army of Austria.

Since these troops were essentially private and operating outside the regulatory standards of the army, it seems that it would be impossible to determine exactly what weapons were used by whom, and they were using all types of weapons from regions which had been under Ottoman suzerainty.
There were of course yataghans of Ottoman form used throughout the Balkans, including Croatia, which comprised the larger component of von Trencks forces. Since these troops essentially became outlaw, it seems unlikely provenanced examples would have been reliably documented.

While I would not question the well established authority of this very esteemed author and curator, I am admittedly a bit surprised at the assertion that no yataghans were in use in these regions, thus presumably could not have been used by von Trencks pandours. This would be like saying that the 'trench gun' shotguns were not ever used in Viet Nam, since they were outside regulation .

It must be conceded that a great number of the weapons that are believed to have been used by pandours, particularly the horsemen,often had heavier deep bellied 'yataghan' blades, and typically European style hilts or in many cases karabela or shallow yataghan eared types, along with of course varying European style sabres. The foot troops, however, seem to have in some degree carried the more familiar yataghan as a secondary weapon in the sash in janissary fashion. It seems I was once corrected in my assumption that Balkan or European forces fighting Turks would not have also had yataghans

some years ago.

The attached map is to illustrate the proximity of these regions, and the likely potential diffusion of the yataghan, as well as a couple of the illustrations illustrating 'panduren' and are probably among those being disputed....and our man in question, the Baron.

Dmitry · 23rd July 2010, 02:35 AM

That is an excellent point. To my knowledge there was no uniformed "pandur sword" pattern.
I feel that for the sake of posterity it must be stressed that to call a European hunting sword a "Pandur sword" based only on the blade marked VIVAT PANDUR would be erroneous.
This was, in my opinion, just a popular hirschfanger and jagdplaute blade inscription in the mid to late 1700s, which possibly and probably originated in Austria.

Jim McDougall · 23rd July 2010, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

That is an excellent point. To my knowledge there was no uniformed "pandur sword" pattern.
I feel that for the sake of posterity it must be stressed that to call a European hunting sword a "Pandur sword" based only on the blade marked VIVAT PANDUR would be erroneous.
This was, in my opinion, just a popular hirschfanger and jagdplaute blade inscription in the mid to late 1700s, which possibly and probably originated in Austria.

Thanks very much Dmitry, I very much appreciate the support on that. Its been about 15 years since my original research on this intriguing topic, and while these Vivat Pandur swords are really attractive and appealing, they are just as noted.
R.D.C. Evans ("The Plug Bayonet" ) also wrote some great material on this motto on the plug bayonets with the motto.

All best regards,
Jim

Andy Stevens · 23rd July 2010, 11:41 AM

Thankyou for the replies so far gentlemen on this fascinating subject. We aquired this sword in as part of a group buy, so any comments made are taken happily and in a constructive manner. We're still rather interested in opinions regarding the hilt decoration, as a fair degree of work has been put into its construction-the bone inset disks are all hand made and finished and the ears of the handle demonstrate a skilled hand. Was this then somebodies attempt to copy the much more ornate 'true' yataghans or is simply a local interpration of such incorporating local style and design? The blade, when held for closer inspection, appears to us no worse than those found on some Indian munition grade tulwars- crude but effective. As for the sword being ill fitting, that was at first our thought, but having played around with it a wee bit, we've come to the conclusion that the parts may have once fitted snuggly and the blade when mounted the correct way round would have made this an effective weapon. These is just what we see close up. Whatever it be, a genuine old fighter or a still vintage pretender, we are glad that its seen the light of day and raised a few eyebrows!

thanks again,
Here are some pics showing some more detail of the blade.
Andy and Karina.

VANDOO · 24th July 2010, 01:43 AM

A INTERESTING SWORD IT APPEARS TO HAVE SUFFERED FROM EXPOSURE TO THE ELEMENTS FOR QUITE A SPELL. TO ME ITS WEATHERING AND PITTING LOOKS NATURAL NOT CONTRIVED BY MAN. THE BLADE IS TOO FAR GONE TO BE WORTH RESTORATION BUT YOU COULD CONTINUE TO CLEAN THE SECTION AND ETCH TO GET A BETTER IDEA AS TO ITS QUALITY. CLEAN UP THE HANDLE A BIT AND PUT A BIT OF MINERAL OR BABY OIL ON THE HORN AND BONE. THE HORN IS TOO FAR GONE TO RESTORE AND I WOULD JUST LEAVE IT AS IS OTHER THAN REMOVING THE DIRT AND APPLYING SOME OIL. I AM ASSUMING THE DECORATED DISKS ARE BONE AS I DOUBT IVORY COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE NEGLECT AND EXPOSURE THIS SOWRD HAD ENDURED. I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS ARTEFACT GRADE, IF YOU WANT TO DO CARBON DATE OR ANY TESTING DO IT BEFORE APPLYING ANY PRESERVITIVES OR OIL. CLEANING IT UP A BIT AND LOOKING IT OVER CLOSELY WITH GOOD LIGHT AND MAGNIFICATION MAY REVEAL SOMETHING TO HELP CONFIRM ITS AGE OR AUTHENCITY. THANKS FOR SHAREING GOOD LUCK

22nd July 2010, 11:37 PM	#2
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Here is a Pandur combination sword-pistol from the book by J.LUGOSI - KARDOK. It has a yataghan-like blade, which he dates to the 1700s. Attached Images

23rd July 2010, 12:39 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,284	The excellent book by Ms. Boskovic seems to be an outstanding reference, and I wish I had a copy! It is interesting about the reference to Baron von Trencks memoires being a forgery, but as sensationalized as his case was in the times it does not seem surprising that such things would occur. What are a matter of well established and documented fact are the descriptions of the exploits of his units of pandours, which as noted were disbanded in 1749 as he was imprisoned. It is important to note that these troops under his command were assembled from mercenaries that were comprised of numerous ethnic groups from various regions. They were an essentially privately assembled force of irregular troops who obviously would have used thier own weapons, though acting as auxiliaries for the Imperial Army of Austria. Since these troops were essentially private and operating outside the regulatory standards of the army, it seems that it would be impossible to determine exactly what weapons were used by whom, and they were using all types of weapons from regions which had been under Ottoman suzerainty. There were of course yataghans of Ottoman form used throughout the Balkans, including Croatia, which comprised the larger component of von Trencks forces. Since these troops essentially became outlaw, it seems unlikely provenanced examples would have been reliably documented. While I would not question the well established authority of this very esteemed author and curator, I am admittedly a bit surprised at the assertion that no yataghans were in use in these regions, thus presumably could not have been used by von Trencks pandours. This would be like saying that the 'trench gun' shotguns were not ever used in Viet Nam, since they were outside regulation . It must be conceded that a great number of the weapons that are believed to have been used by pandours, particularly the horsemen,often had heavier deep bellied 'yataghan' blades, and typically European style hilts or in many cases karabela or shallow yataghan eared types, along with of course varying European style sabres. The foot troops, however, seem to have in some degree carried the more familiar yataghan as a secondary weapon in the sash in janissary fashion. It seems I was once corrected in my assumption that Balkan or European forces fighting Turks would not have also had yataghans some years ago. The attached map is to illustrate the proximity of these regions, and the likely potential diffusion of the yataghan, as well as a couple of the illustrations illustrating 'panduren' and are probably among those being disputed....and our man in question, the Baron. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 23rd July 2010 at 01:38 AM.

23rd July 2010, 11:41 AM	#6
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Thankyou for the replies so far gentlemen on this fascinating subject. We aquired this sword in as part of a group buy, so any comments made are taken happily and in a constructive manner. We're still rather interested in opinions regarding the hilt decoration, as a fair degree of work has been put into its construction-the bone inset disks are all hand made and finished and the ears of the handle demonstrate a skilled hand. Was this then somebodies attempt to copy the much more ornate 'true' yataghans or is simply a local interpration of such incorporating local style and design? The blade, when held for closer inspection, appears to us no worse than those found on some Indian munition grade tulwars- crude but effective. As for the sword being ill fitting, that was at first our thought, but having played around with it a wee bit, we've come to the conclusion that the parts may have once fitted snuggly and the blade when mounted the correct way round would have made this an effective weapon. These is just what we see close up. Whatever it be, a genuine old fighter or a still vintage pretender, we are glad that its seen the light of day and raised a few eyebrows! thanks again, Here are some pics showing some more detail of the blade. Andy and Karina. Attached Images

22nd July 2010, 11:01 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Dora Boskovic in her book about Yataghans in the collection of the State Muzeum in Zagreb writes that the famous memoires of Baron Franjo von Trent (1711-1749, unit established allegedly in 1743) were a later forgery. Also, using European imid-18-th century iconography of travels through the Balkans with sketches of the exotically-looking locals with their even more exotic weapons, there is not a single yataghan in sight until at least end of 18th century. Thus, she doubts ( or dismisses altogether) the idea of von Trent arming his pandours with yataghans. I also have my antennae twitching: something is not right about this yataghan, for the same reasons outlined earlier by others. The quality of the blade can be judged only by the current owner, but I cannot believe that any actual yataghan user would have put the handle backwards! I also do not enjoy passing bad news, sorry....

23rd July 2010, 02:35 AM	#4
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	That is an excellent point. To my knowledge there was no uniformed "pandur sword" pattern. I feel that for the sake of posterity it must be stressed that to call a European hunting sword a "Pandur sword" based only on the blade marked VIVAT PANDUR would be erroneous. This was, in my opinion, just a popular hirschfanger and jagdplaute blade inscription in the mid to late 1700s, which possibly and probably originated in Austria.

24th July 2010, 01:43 AM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A INTERESTING SWORD IT APPEARS TO HAVE SUFFERED FROM EXPOSURE TO THE ELEMENTS FOR QUITE A SPELL. TO ME ITS WEATHERING AND PITTING LOOKS NATURAL NOT CONTRIVED BY MAN. THE BLADE IS TOO FAR GONE TO BE WORTH RESTORATION BUT YOU COULD CONTINUE TO CLEAN THE SECTION AND ETCH TO GET A BETTER IDEA AS TO ITS QUALITY. CLEAN UP THE HANDLE A BIT AND PUT A BIT OF MINERAL OR BABY OIL ON THE HORN AND BONE. THE HORN IS TOO FAR GONE TO RESTORE AND I WOULD JUST LEAVE IT AS IS OTHER THAN REMOVING THE DIRT AND APPLYING SOME OIL. I AM ASSUMING THE DECORATED DISKS ARE BONE AS I DOUBT IVORY COULD HAVE SURVIVED THE NEGLECT AND EXPOSURE THIS SOWRD HAD ENDURED. I WOULD CLASSIFY IT AS ARTEFACT GRADE, IF YOU WANT TO DO CARBON DATE OR ANY TESTING DO IT BEFORE APPLYING ANY PRESERVITIVES OR OIL. CLEANING IT UP A BIT AND LOOKING IT OVER CLOSELY WITH GOOD LIGHT AND MAGNIFICATION MAY REVEAL SOMETHING TO HELP CONFIRM ITS AGE OR AUTHENCITY. THANKS FOR SHAREING GOOD LUCK