Sword for ID on SFI

[Rick]

So do we suppose there were once jewels in those two bezel mounts(?) on either side of the hilt ? Also note the possibly symbolic three dots in the pommel plate ; some of the floriform decoration on the handle looks almost Tibetan .
Fascinating sword !

Andy , I made a large close up from your picture of the 'elephant' ; okay to post it ?

[Lew]

Hi Guys

I will throw in my two cents. It strikes me as Indo Persian the knuckle guard screams tulwar the brass overlay is similar to flyssa hilts and the blade is North Indian or even Afghan due to the shape of the choil (as in khyber knives). I have seen a similar blade shape in Dr. Feigels book on wootz swords.

Lew

[Andy Davis]

Go for it Rick, do the elephant thing. Has anybody else noticed the small ridge, about a third of the way along the inside of the handle. Looks a bit like a trigger but seems to be to improve grip. Have we encounterd that before?
Cheers
Andy

[M.carter]

Umm? guys, is SFI down again? All the forums seem to be locked to me. Is it only me, or is anyone else experiencing this?

[Rick]

I added the pictures to your post Andy .

IMO if this is a depiction of an elephant it was done by someone who had never seen one in the flesh .

Still thinking it's N.W. Indo Persian , but the engraving is unsophisticated which to me would indicate a less advanced tribe or culture .
Definitely a ceremonial piece or we would have seen one before this .

[Conogre]

Rick, I'm ashamed of you...."definitely"?
I for one don't think that it's ceremonial, rather just the opposite, and while it may be a one-of-a-kind, it may also be that this simply is the first one that's surfaced, such as my "Philippine bellied chopper from Hal" that remained unique of at least 6 years until the Spanish museum photos were published here and Tom obtained one.We're often tempted to think that all that is known is already known, while in truth, I suspect that more has been forgotten than we'll ever know.
I do think that I'd favor an Afghan/N. India place of origin, and if it's the latter, I suspect that more will surface eventually (and hopefully, at least one in front of me!**grin**)
To me the knuckle guard sems almost to have been welded/brazed on to the existing hilt, and I actually edited it out w/photoshop to see what the effect was, still complete and serviceable looking.
While the holes may have contained gems or such, it's also possible that they were vent hole from the mold so as to keep bubbles from forming in the bronze while it was being cast.
That small notch on the inner grip is what Justin noted, comparing it to a similar feature in many Ottoman knives.
If this is a composite piece, my own gut feelings are that 1) it was made to be used, 2) that it's NOT recent, and 3) it was likely made at a village level with no thoughts of the dreaded "T-word" involved.
Mike

[Jim McDougall]

This is an extremely interesting piece and I responded on it on SFI, not actually realizing I had linked over I agree very much with the aesthetic influence of Arabian saifs, which include by association the Moroccan 'nimchas', however I am actually thinking more of those of the Yemen and Hadhramaut. The rather hexagonal shape of the grip seems remininscent of these (which Dr.Elgood notes were often manufactured in Hyderabad ). In my post on SFI , I had noted the shape of the knuckleguard as well as the raised nock on the inside of the grip as suggesting the Ceylonese kastane, however in reading the posts on this thread and upon reconsidering ,I tend to agree with the tulwar associated shape more. With this I am inclined more toward the Northwest Frontier as has been suggested on this thread than my original inclination toward the south.

It seems that many of the weapons of India have atavistic inclinations, that is they seem to be interpretations of venerable iconography and representations of ancient weapons in various art. In this case this weapon seems remarkably like closed hilt examples of the Spanish kopis (evolved from the falcata) as shown in "Swords and Hilt Weapons" p.22. This same type closed or voided hilt is also reminiscent of the medieval European dusack which was essentially a heavy, curved blade with opening for the hand to grip the piece.
While it is uncertain exactly how such classical weapons might have influenced this apparant interpretation , it is known that often such representation does occur in many ethnographic weapons in varying degrees .
Another feature that suggests the northern regions of India, in reviewing the additional illustrations, is what appears semi-circle sickle marks along the back edge of the blade. This motif, occurs on some Indian weapons blades as motif in this manner, and is also found on some blades in the Caucusus, where trade with these regions was well established.

This heavy, chopping weapon seems most unusual, and does seem related in degree to the Khyber 'Salawar Yataghan' previously noted in the manner it is hilted.

I didn't notice the peacock in the motif had 4 legs !! But despite that, regarding the peacock I thought the Mughals sort of liked them....and the Rajputs used Peacock plumage as sort of insignia from what I understand.

This is really an unusual variant Andy!! Thank you so much for sharing it.

Best regards,
Jim

[tom hyle]

Errata/disagreements of fact/terminology:
The dusaks referred to were, I think, the training weapons, with the guard an extnesion of the blade (which I hear was commonly thin steel covered with hide). Real fighting dusacks are more ordinary sabres/hangers, though I think broad bladed. So many of us have seen those wood cut prints and wanted one of those swords that were never swords, only to find out they were the training weapons; I'm gonna make one from sawsteel one day anyway!
A Yelman is a "dropped" (ie suddenly widened) sharp part length false edge at the tip, as seen on the nimcha above with the bare blade. The part of the handle that grips the blade is a bolster. Long flat bolsters like this are seen in some traditional work, some of which has been mentioned; it would probably be more useful to consider where that work comes from than to look for an unusual practice or occurance (ie "one of" assemblage etc.).

Thoughts:
Looks a LOT like an elephant to me, and I assure you I've seen them. Bi-lobed head top; wrinkled forehead; trunk; looks a lot like an elephant; the angling of the cheeks seems about right, too? perhaps you are thinking of a loxodon? (African elephant) Perhaps a female elephant? Female Asian elephants commonly have no or small emergent tusks, and tusks are not as usually treated with the emphasis in Hindu elephant art that they are in African (think of statues of Ganesh, for instance). Where, not so much are, but where were elephants in the recent historical past? How far North and West? I have this book called Elephant; the animal and its ivory in African culture. It devides the continent by chapters on various cultures, and one fascinating (?to me? ) thing that arises again and again is the elephant as an important symbol and artistic motif in areas where there have been no elephants for even centuries. Perjaps so in India, too?
There is a slight resemblance to the knucklebowed kopis, mainly in the arrangement of the knuckleguard and bolster (and indeed, though the linked one above isn't one of them, there are salwar yataghans with very similar guards; score one for the widespread of kopis and its features; direction of distribution not implied.....score one for Asian knucklebows not modernly coming from Europe, too.); the blade much more closely resembles a known local modern type; it is a khanda blade, part of a khanda blade, or close relative; this seems fairly clear? Breakage is a possibility if it's a rehilt, or a modification due to obsolescence (or foreign-ness?) of the khanda. Thanks for the closeups. The hilt seems to be lost wax cast. There seems to be a slight sloppiness around each end of the knucklebow, suggesting it is soldered (brazed?) on (but could be from the casting/moulding process), and the butt looks like a seperate plate that has been soldered on. The angling is all different, but I note a resemblance to kukuri butts. The copper eyes and line of crescents are proably the only things that remind me of Berber work. The off-center hole in the butt seems mysterious.
The brasswork does not resemble that on flyssas, which is thin hammered sheet over a wooden core.
The finger stall, while looking different, may have similar handling contributions to the narrow area before the pommel on tulwars (etc.).