Krisses Jalak Buda

rasjid · 6th July 2010, 07:19 AM

Hi Paul,

You can contact this email: sentosakeris@yahoo.com (Mr Toni Junus) to see if they still have (only printed 1000copies) and I believe after the exhibition only less than 200 copies left. Its a big book with more than >300pages of A4 size kerises.

Good luck.

rasjid

Greybeard · 6th July 2010, 01:05 PM

Dear Jean,

I first thought that I cannot contribute to your thread, but now I notice one detail with the first keris you post that makes me wonder: Do I see a turned over mendak or is it a metuk, permanently fixed to the pesi (as seen on tombak)?

Best regards,

Heinz

Jean · 6th July 2010, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greybeard

Dear Jean,

I first thought that I cannot contribute to your thread, but now I notice one detail with the first keris you post that makes me wonder: Do I see a turned over mendak or is it a metuk, permanently fixed to the pesi (as seen on tombak)?

Best regards,

Heinz

Dear Heinz,
Both krisses are fitted with an integrated methuk (as it should be). The top one has some rust embedded in it but of course I did not do anything to it except applying anti-rust oil for future conservation.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 8th July 2010, 05:10 AM

Jean, the keris of which you show images are not pure keris budho, but rather of a type intermediate between keris budho and the early modern keris.

As to why they are given the classification designation of "Singosari", well, that's something that nobody can answer at this remove. But don't let it worry you, its only a classification, and might just as well be given any designation.

When we start to involve ourselves with tangguh, which you are doing with these questions, there are two major ways you can go:- accept everything as an item of faith, or reject everything as so much invention.

To be fair, there is a third way:- accept as more or less historically accurate those classifications that can be logically supported, and regard those classifications which cannot be logically supported as indicative of possibilities only.

Jean · 8th July 2010, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, the keris of which you show images are not pure keris budho, but rather of a type intermediate between keris budho and the early modern keris.

As to why they are given the classification designation of "Singosari", well, that's something that nobody can answer at this remove. But don't let it worry you, its only a classification, and might just as well be given any designation.

When we start to involve ourselves with tangguh, which you are doing with these questions, there are two major ways you can go:- accept everything as an item of faith, or reject everything as so much invention.

To be fair, there is a third way:- accept as more or less historically accurate those classifications that can be logically supported, and regard those classifications which cannot be logically supported as indicative of possibilities only.

Dear Alan,
Thank you very much for your reply which perfectly meets my expectations and reinforces my doubts. In a few lines you said it all!
My 2 pieces are typical specimens of this type of intermediate krisses, and I agree that they cannot be accurately dated, and that these pieces are probably from different periods as some of them have pamor for instance. Have you any picture of an original keris Budho to show us?
Regarding the judgement about the tangguh matter I fully agree with your cautious statement, personally I follow the intermediate (third) way and will use it in my new book.
Thank you very much again and best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 8th July 2010, 11:22 AM

Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in.

If I'm in Jawa with gentlemen who are very traditional followers of Javanese culture and philosophy, I agree with everything that is said --- it is not my place to to attempt to lecture people on their own culture.

Shut up. Listen. Learn.

If I am with people who are convinced that they already know all there is to be known, I do the same thing:-

Shut up. Listen. Learn -- or perhaps be mildly amused.

If I am with gentlemen who can take a calm, balanced, and logical view of the world and all things in it, I am prepared to adopt the third way and attempt to justify my acceptance of this approach.

As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.

Jean · 8th July 2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in.

As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.

Dear Alan,
You are a very wise man, I also try to adopt this approach but am less "Javanesed" than you so I can't help to give my careful opinion sometimes with people whom I know well ....
I am sure that all the forumites will be very interested to see the pictures of your keris Budho as this is not a common occurrence!
Thank you again and best regards
Jean

Jean · 6th July 2010, 01:29 PM

Dear friends,
My question seems to raise some interest from the number of viewers but no response so I will try to stimulate you a bit:
AFAIK these krisses Budha are supposed to be the oldest type of kris and some sources say that they may have originated in Central Java around the 9th or 10th century AD. So why are they classified from a 13th century short-lived period in East Java? If they originated in East Java and not Centre Java, why during the Singosari period and not the earlier kingdoms of Kahuripan (11th century), or Kediri and Jenggala (11th and 12th century)? According to the legend of Ken Arok and Empu Gandring, the krisses made during the Singosari period were much more elaborate than the krisses Budha? Also the features of the blades from tangguh Singosari described in the EK for instance do not match at all with the krisses Budha?
Pak Ganja, your kris shown in page174 of the book is the only one of this kind called keris Budho but the tangguh is specified as Budho - Singosari, what does it mean?

Regarding the book "Keris untuk Dunia", it was for sale on Ebay by Bakoelkeris (Suryono) few days ago but no longer, you may contact him to investigate if he still has or cand get some copies.
Best regards
Jean

ganjawulung · 11th August 2010, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Pak Ganja, your kris shown in page174 of the book is the only one of this kind called keris Budho but the tangguh is specified as Budho - Singosari, what does it mean?

Dear Jean,
The classification 'Singasari" is not from me, but from book curator's opinion. And these images below, are from the same jalak buda blade as published in the KFTW book. I have seen quite a lot of "buda" tipe of jalak dhapur. But the condition of this blade is not as corrosive as usually I've seen..

GANJAWULUNG

6th July 2010, 07:19 AM	#1
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Hi Paul, You can contact this email: sentosakeris@yahoo.com (Mr Toni Junus) to see if they still have (only printed 1000copies) and I believe after the exhibition only less than 200 copies left. Its a big book with more than >300pages of A4 size kerises. Good luck. rasjid

6th July 2010, 01:05 PM	#2
Greybeard Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Switzerland Posts: 124	Dear Jean, I first thought that I cannot contribute to your thread, but now I notice one detail with the first keris you post that makes me wonder: Do I see a turned over mendak or is it a metuk, permanently fixed to the pesi (as seen on tombak)? Best regards, Heinz

8th July 2010, 05:10 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jean, the keris of which you show images are not pure keris budho, but rather of a type intermediate between keris budho and the early modern keris. As to why they are given the classification designation of "Singosari", well, that's something that nobody can answer at this remove. But don't let it worry you, its only a classification, and might just as well be given any designation. When we start to involve ourselves with tangguh, which you are doing with these questions, there are two major ways you can go:- accept everything as an item of faith, or reject everything as so much invention. To be fair, there is a third way:- accept as more or less historically accurate those classifications that can be logically supported, and regard those classifications which cannot be logically supported as indicative of possibilities only.

8th July 2010, 11:22 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jean, to be brutally honest, my approach to tangguh varies according to the company I am in. If I'm in Jawa with gentlemen who are very traditional followers of Javanese culture and philosophy, I agree with everything that is said --- it is not my place to to attempt to lecture people on their own culture. Shut up. Listen. Learn. If I am with people who are convinced that they already know all there is to be known, I do the same thing:- Shut up. Listen. Learn -- or perhaps be mildly amused. If I am with gentlemen who can take a calm, balanced, and logical view of the world and all things in it, I am prepared to adopt the third way and attempt to justify my acceptance of this approach. As to an image of a typical keris budho, I do have a number of these and I am probably prepared to provide an image. Leave it with me, I'll see what I can do.

6th July 2010, 01:29 PM	#8
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Dear friends, My question seems to raise some interest from the number of viewers but no response so I will try to stimulate you a bit: AFAIK these krisses Budha are supposed to be the oldest type of kris and some sources say that they may have originated in Central Java around the 9th or 10th century AD. So why are they classified from a 13th century short-lived period in East Java? If they originated in East Java and not Centre Java, why during the Singosari period and not the earlier kingdoms of Kahuripan (11th century), or Kediri and Jenggala (11th and 12th century)? According to the legend of Ken Arok and Empu Gandring, the krisses made during the Singosari period were much more elaborate than the krisses Budha? Also the features of the blades from tangguh Singosari described in the EK for instance do not match at all with the krisses Budha? Pak Ganja, your kris shown in page174 of the book is the only one of this kind called keris Budho but the tangguh is specified as Budho - Singosari, what does it mean? Regarding the book "Keris untuk Dunia", it was for sale on Ebay by Bakoelkeris (Suryono) few days ago but no longer, you may contact him to investigate if he still has or cand get some copies. Best regards Jean