Antique Jade Sword

Bryan.H · 19th June 2010, 05:31 PM

What's with the stain/ discolouration on the blade? This looks chemically treated somehow to me. With so many 'antique' swords being made in Guandong on a daily basis and sold to unsuspecting round-eyes, it's difficult not to be sceptical about edged weapons coming out of China.

Philip · 20th June 2010, 07:16 AM

Gentlemen,
Nothing about this piece really "adds up". First off, this "Certificate of Authenticity" is issued by a merchant's association in Hong Kong. Not by a legitimate and accredited museum, or the Ministry of Culture but by a ... (ahem!) group of guys who are in the business of selling antiques, tshatshkes, curios, and the like to whomever would buy them. In the Shoppers' Paradise of the Orient, no less. Yuanzhumin has hit it on the head in his post: this document is a pot that won't hold water.

The shape of the blade has no relation to any jian which I have seen from the Han Dynasty onward. The notable reduction in width as it approaches the rather acute tip is a contour that is taken from the classic bronze swords of the Zhou Dynasty's Warring States Period. Yet this blade is made of iron or steel, and has a simple lozenge cross-section (as is the case of jian made during the medieval and late imperial periods), without the complex bevels, sunken panels, and ridgelines in relief that are characteristic of the bronze blades of classical antiquity. The fellow who conceived this blade tried to cover the span of history in one blade and as Genghis Cohen might have said, "me ken nisht zitsn af tsvey shtuln mit eyn tokhes".

The fittings are likewise a stylistic mishmosh. There are these gilt bands with archaistic elements in relief, as seen on Shang and Zhou bronzes. The chape is patterned after those on jian scabbards from the Zhou and Han periods. Next to the gilded elements is silverwork with motifs similar to those seen on Tibetan objects (such as knife-sheaths, tinder-pouches, bowls, pitchers, etc.), with the characteristic turquoises and corals.

I first saw these in Hong Kong in the 1970s, shopkeepers all said at that time that these were "Mongolian knives and swords". One problem -- in all of the period photos I've seen depicting Mongolia and its people, not one of these swords shows up. The Los Angeles County Museum of Art has a single-edged example which is captioned as "Tibetan" in the display cabinet. Again, an exhaustive hunt for documentary ethnographic photos, or provenanced examples in museums, has turned up zilch. And interestingly, nothing remotely similar was included in the definitive exhibition "Warriors of the Himalayas" mounted by the Metropolitan Mus. of Art in 2006 using material from collections in several countries.

These are curio items, composites made of associated materials : antique jades and other hardstones of varying age, blades which were either freshly made (usually quite crudely) or recycled from broken antique Chinese and Japanese swords, and silver parts crafted for the purpose. It's believed that most of these came from Beijing. Silversmiths there were familiar with Tibetan styles of silverwork because a fair amount of the metalwork used by Tibetans was in fact made in China for the export trade.

Some of these sword-like objects are "fairly old" because I've seen a few which have a provenance of sorts -- estate pieces traceable to military or diplomatic service (usually as gifts to US personnel in China before or during WW II). One piece of this sort I remember seeing at a gun show was a jian that had virtually no patina to speak of (having been well-stored in a gun case for years) and fake Qianlong reign marks on the blade that were something of a bad joke. I also saw brand-new ones for sale at the Beijing "Friendship Stores" in 1979 and '81, and similar albeit poorer-quality ones offered for sale in Shanhaiguan in 1998.

cmario88 · 22nd June 2010, 06:09 PM

Philip, Thank you on your reply to my "curio" and I say that with a smile. I'm waiting for responses from a few other sources and would like to wait before commenting on your assessment. Again thank you.

Nathaniel · 23rd June 2010, 03:08 AM

Mario,

Philip would be the one of the top authorities on Chinese swords (Google it)...notice the rest of us can tell you it's a fake...but Philip can give you the details....several members on the forum have been collecting for a long time...and have seen what has come around.

The more recent fakes coming out of China are getting better and better at first glance...but still have such a crazy mix motifs send red flags....like Philip said...things just don't add up.

And also to answer your one question regarding the specific forum:

Note the file at the top:

刀剑天下论坛 HFsword.com Forums » 假冒伪劣 Fake Sword Forum

http://hfsword.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?fid=8

Nathaniel · 23rd June 2010, 03:16 AM

Also sadly the Sword Forum International --> Antique Arms & Armour Community -->Chinese, SEA (CSEA)

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=146

This section seems to be prime spot where people ask such questions regarding their recent acquisitions...

Rick · 23rd June 2010, 04:35 PM

Yes, Philip Tom is the real deal .
Trust his remarks about your sword .
They are spot on .

Bill M · 23rd June 2010, 05:44 PM

Mario,

I understand how this must feel. My first Chinese sword was an "Imperial Emperor General Jian," from eBay. Whew! It was a learning experience! Ouch! That was a few years ago and while I have found a few bargains online, the best have come from reputable dealers and other collectors.

So, how do you know the "reputable" people? Hang around here and ask a few questions. Make friends, read books, visit museums. This is not an exact science and you will make some mistakes, but as you study, network and learn, the mistakes will get fewer.

With the kind assistance of several of the forum members here, I acquired some authentic and beautiful pieces. Collecting is a fascinating and worthwhile endeavor.

You can absolutely trust Phillip Tom's comments. He is one of the very top experts in the world in Chinese arms. You do not need to look further. He is trying to help you understand.

There are others here who are also experts in their fields.

I am sure that I speak for many of the people on this Forum when I say, "Welcome." Hope that we see you again.

Bill

cmario88 · 23rd June 2010, 05:48 PM

Hi Rick, I was hoping this site would be the place I'd find some answers and it hasn't disappointed. Everyone has been Great and yes it -Stings- a little learning about my sword but I still enjoy and appreciate it.

Regards

cmario88 · 23rd June 2010, 05:37 PM

Hi Nathaniel,

I have no doubt Philip is the authority and as mentioned I am grateful for his response and he has my respect, but that does not mean that I’m going to stop there. I’m also in agreement that it appears the sword has no historical value, but I must cover all avenues in the hopes that by chance it may have another story to tell other then greed, slim I know but crazier things have happened in the world and I think it’s worth a try. Don’t you?
One of the reasons I was waiting to respond back to Philip concerns the infamous “Hong Kong Art Craft Merchants Association” “Certificate Of Antiquity” I’m waiting for response concerning that document. I think it would be fun to see what comes of my request, but truthfully think I’m going to run into a dead end knowing the Chinese reputation on giving out info. Anyway Nathaniel I truly appreciate your help and will post when I have something interesting.

Thanks everyone!!!

Nathaniel · 24th June 2010, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmario88

Hi Nathaniel,

I have no doubt Philip is the authority and as mentioned I am grateful for his response and he has my respect, but that does not mean that I’m going to stop there. I’m also in agreement that it appears the sword has no historical value, but I must cover all avenues in the hopes that by chance it may have another story to tell other then greed, slim I know but crazier things have happened in the world and I think it’s worth a try. Don’t you?
One of the reasons I was waiting to respond back to Philip concerns the infamous “Hong Kong Art Craft Merchants Association” “Certificate Of Antiquity” I’m waiting for response concerning that document. I think it would be fun to see what comes of my request, but truthfully think I’m going to run into a dead end knowing the Chinese reputation on giving out info. Anyway Nathaniel I truly appreciate your help and will post when I have something interesting.

Thanks everyone!!!

Mario,

Great stuff your investigation. I know I have lots to learn and have learned a lot here with the great bunch of guys here. I'm sure there is stuff too I have incorrect. As Bill said, many of use experienced something similar at one point in our collecting. And I forgot to say, Welcome

And yes, do check out the book Philip is talking about. It's a nice hardcover with good photos.

20th June 2010, 07:16 AM	#2
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	It all depends on how you define "old", I guess Gentlemen, Nothing about this piece really "adds up". First off, this "Certificate of Authenticity" is issued by a merchant's association in Hong Kong. Not by a legitimate and accredited museum, or the Ministry of Culture but by a ... (ahem!) group of guys who are in the business of selling antiques, tshatshkes, curios, and the like to whomever would buy them. In the Shoppers' Paradise of the Orient, no less. Yuanzhumin has hit it on the head in his post: this document is a pot that won't hold water. The shape of the blade has no relation to any jian which I have seen from the Han Dynasty onward. The notable reduction in width as it approaches the rather acute tip is a contour that is taken from the classic bronze swords of the Zhou Dynasty's Warring States Period. Yet this blade is made of iron or steel, and has a simple lozenge cross-section (as is the case of jian made during the medieval and late imperial periods), without the complex bevels, sunken panels, and ridgelines in relief that are characteristic of the bronze blades of classical antiquity. The fellow who conceived this blade tried to cover the span of history in one blade and as Genghis Cohen might have said, "me ken nisht zitsn af tsvey shtuln mit eyn tokhes". The fittings are likewise a stylistic mishmosh. There are these gilt bands with archaistic elements in relief, as seen on Shang and Zhou bronzes. The chape is patterned after those on jian scabbards from the Zhou and Han periods. Next to the gilded elements is silverwork with motifs similar to those seen on Tibetan objects (such as knife-sheaths, tinder-pouches, bowls, pitchers, etc.), with the characteristic turquoises and corals. I first saw these in Hong Kong in the 1970s, shopkeepers all said at that time that these were "Mongolian knives and swords". One problem -- in all of the period photos I've seen depicting Mongolia and its people, not one of these swords shows up. The Los Angeles County Museum of Art has a single-edged example which is captioned as "Tibetan" in the display cabinet. Again, an exhaustive hunt for documentary ethnographic photos, or provenanced examples in museums, has turned up zilch. And interestingly, nothing remotely similar was included in the definitive exhibition "Warriors of the Himalayas" mounted by the Metropolitan Mus. of Art in 2006 using material from collections in several countries. These are curio items, composites made of associated materials : antique jades and other hardstones of varying age, blades which were either freshly made (usually quite crudely) or recycled from broken antique Chinese and Japanese swords, and silver parts crafted for the purpose. It's believed that most of these came from Beijing. Silversmiths there were familiar with Tibetan styles of silverwork because a fair amount of the metalwork used by Tibetans was in fact made in China for the export trade. Some of these sword-like objects are "fairly old" because I've seen a few which have a provenance of sorts -- estate pieces traceable to military or diplomatic service (usually as gifts to US personnel in China before or during WW II). One piece of this sort I remember seeing at a gun show was a jian that had virtually no patina to speak of (having been well-stored in a gun case for years) and fake Qianlong reign marks on the blade that were something of a bad joke. I also saw brand-new ones for sale at the Beijing "Friendship Stores" in 1979 and '81, and similar albeit poorer-quality ones offered for sale in Shanhaiguan in 1998.

22nd June 2010, 06:09 PM	#3
cmario88 Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8	Thank you Philip, Thank you on your reply to my "curio" and I say that with a smile. I'm waiting for responses from a few other sources and would like to wait before commenting on your assessment. Again thank you.

23rd June 2010, 03:08 AM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Mario, Philip would be the one of the top authorities on Chinese swords (Google it)...notice the rest of us can tell you it's a fake...but Philip can give you the details....several members on the forum have been collecting for a long time...and have seen what has come around. The more recent fakes coming out of China are getting better and better at first glance...but still have such a crazy mix motifs send red flags....like Philip said...things just don't add up. And also to answer your one question regarding the specific forum: Note the file at the top: 刀剑天下论坛 HFsword.com Forums » 假冒伪劣 Fake Sword Forum http://hfsword.com/bbs/forumdisplay.php?fid=8 Last edited by Nathaniel; 23rd June 2010 at 03:29 AM.

23rd June 2010, 05:48 PM	#8
cmario88 Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8	Thank You Rick Hi Rick, I was hoping this site would be the place I'd find some answers and it hasn't disappointed. Everyone has been Great and yes it -Stings- a little learning about my sword but I still enjoy and appreciate it. Regards

23rd June 2010, 05:37 PM	#9
cmario88 Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8	Jade Sword Hi Nathaniel, I have no doubt Philip is the authority and as mentioned I am grateful for his response and he has my respect, but that does not mean that I’m going to stop there. I’m also in agreement that it appears the sword has no historical value, but I must cover all avenues in the hopes that by chance it may have another story to tell other then greed, slim I know but crazier things have happened in the world and I think it’s worth a try. Don’t you? One of the reasons I was waiting to respond back to Philip concerns the infamous “Hong Kong Art Craft Merchants Association” “Certificate Of Antiquity” I’m waiting for response concerning that document. I think it would be fun to see what comes of my request, but truthfully think I’m going to run into a dead end knowing the Chinese reputation on giving out info. Anyway Nathaniel I truly appreciate your help and will post when I have something interesting. Thanks everyone!!!

19th June 2010, 05:31 PM	#1
Bryan.H Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 51	What's with the stain/ discolouration on the blade? This looks chemically treated somehow to me. With so many 'antique' swords being made in Guandong on a daily basis and sold to unsuspecting round-eyes, it's difficult not to be sceptical about edged weapons coming out of China.

23rd June 2010, 03:16 AM	#5
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Also sadly the Sword Forum International --> Antique Arms & Armour Community -->Chinese, SEA (CSEA) http://www.swordforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=146 This section seems to be prime spot where people ask such questions regarding their recent acquisitions...

23rd June 2010, 04:35 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Yes, Philip Tom is the real deal . Trust his remarks about your sword . They are spot on .

23rd June 2010, 05:44 PM	#7
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Mario, I understand how this must feel. My first Chinese sword was an "Imperial Emperor General Jian," from eBay. Whew! It was a learning experience! Ouch! That was a few years ago and while I have found a few bargains online, the best have come from reputable dealers and other collectors. So, how do you know the "reputable" people? Hang around here and ask a few questions. Make friends, read books, visit museums. This is not an exact science and you will make some mistakes, but as you study, network and learn, the mistakes will get fewer. With the kind assistance of several of the forum members here, I acquired some authentic and beautiful pieces. Collecting is a fascinating and worthwhile endeavor. You can absolutely trust Phillip Tom's comments. He is one of the very top experts in the world in Chinese arms. You do not need to look further. He is trying to help you understand. There are others here who are also experts in their fields. I am sure that I speak for many of the people on this Forum when I say, "Welcome." Hope that we see you again. Bill